[hackerspaces] bring back the crime - "hacker" is starting to mean "creative entrepeneur"

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[hackerspaces] bring back the crime - "hacker" is starting to mean "creative entrepeneur"

michael howard
How far are we from "assimilated"? 

From here I am seeing tons and tons of people associating the word "hacker" with business concepts.

"hacker" now invokes associations with "startup", "coworking", "hackathon", "creative initiative", and worst of all, "entrepeneur". 

Miss the good old association with crime - it made all these people stay very far away. 

At this rate "hacker" will soon mean multi-level-marketing. 

Heck, bring back the criminals, they are more fun than these Avon investor hype madness types. 

The only way to keep from being assimilated, is to be bad for their ulcers. 



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Re: [hackerspaces] bring back the crime - "hacker" is starting to mean "creative entrepeneur"

Simón Weinstein
From Chile I share the thought of Michael ; Perhaps the word " hacker" is still associated with crime , but at least our " makerspaces " locals have been linked increasingly to entrepreneurship and business before experimentation and nonsense of yesteryear.

2015-09-21 13:33 GMT-03:00 michael howard <[hidden email]>:
How far are we from "assimilated"? 

From here I am seeing tons and tons of people associating the word "hacker" with business concepts.

"hacker" now invokes associations with "startup", "coworking", "hackathon", "creative initiative", and worst of all, "entrepeneur". 

Miss the good old association with crime - it made all these people stay very far away. 

At this rate "hacker" will soon mean multi-level-marketing. 

Heck, bring back the criminals, they are more fun than these Avon investor hype madness types. 

The only way to keep from being assimilated, is to be bad for their ulcers. 



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--
Simón Weinstein

Director de contenido
Stgo. Makerspace



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Re: [hackerspaces] bring back the crime - "hacker" is starting to mean "creative entrepeneur"

Dave Giancaspro
In reply to this post by michael howard

This echos the sentiment from this article http://tinyurl.com/og9bxgt.

DG

On Sep 21, 2015 12:33 PM, "michael howard" <[hidden email]> wrote:
How far are we from "assimilated"? 

From here I am seeing tons and tons of people associating the word "hacker" with business concepts.

"hacker" now invokes associations with "startup", "coworking", "hackathon", "creative initiative", and worst of all, "entrepeneur". 

Miss the good old association with crime - it made all these people stay very far away. 

At this rate "hacker" will soon mean multi-level-marketing. 

Heck, bring back the criminals, they are more fun than these Avon investor hype madness types. 

The only way to keep from being assimilated, is to be bad for their ulcers. 



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Re: [hackerspaces] bring back the crime - "hacker" is starting to mean "creative entrepeneur"

y.vgr@free.fr
In reply to this post by michael howard
Le 21/09/2015 18:33, michael howard a écrit :
> The only way to keep from being assimilated, is to be bad for their ulcers.

Just think and work for freedom* and liberty** and their ulcers will
automatically come back.

Best regards
Yo

*liberté, indépendance,libération,faculté, facilité
** liberté, liberté individuelle, liberté de conscience, liberté d'allure


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Re: [hackerspaces] bring back the crime - "hacker" is starting to mean "creative entrepeneur"

hellekin-3
On 09/21/2015 03:03 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
> Le 21/09/2015 18:33, michael howard a écrit :
>> The only way to keep from being assimilated, is to be bad for their ulcers.
>
> Just think and work for freedom* and liberty** and their ulcers will
> automatically come back.
>

Yes!  I'm not so happy about the association with "crime", unless the
crime is "thought crime".  Freedom is way enough controversial to grind
the teeth of any wannabe "hacker-entrepreneur".  Criminals claiming the
term hackers are as despicable as startuppers doing so, IMO.  Freedom,
knowledge, cooperation, invention, creativity, fun, yes.  Crime, elite,
not so much.

==
hk

--
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Re: [hackerspaces] bring back the crime - "hacker" is starting to mean "creative entrepeneur"

Lisha Sterling
In reply to this post by y.vgr@free.fr

For the sorts of work I'm involved in, neither the notion of hacker as criminal nor that of hacker as capitalist entrepreneur really helps. I spend an equal amount of time explaining that hackathons aren't criminal festivals as I do explaining that they shouldn't competitions for winning big bucks. At Geeks Without Bounds we focus on creating space for learning and for "hacking" humanitarian projects that will serve communities rather than make money off them. I have pushed the notion that a hackathon is like a walkathon or jump-rope-athon rather than a marathon, and that is about what you can do for a cause you care about rather than being about what you can win.

Unfortunately, money is still needed in order to make those early prototype projects sustainable, so some projects end up as for profit companies, but if I had my druthers they'd all end up as either non profits or as employee owned coops.

Hacking the way business is done so that we can create alternatives to the greed machine is an integral part of my personal hacker ethos.

My favorite definition of Hacking is the one from St Jude. She said that hacking is the clever circumvention of obstacles whether those be in our (computer) systems, our ISPs, our governments or ourselves. I'd add that those obstacles may be in our environment or our culture as well.

- lisha


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Re: [hackerspaces] bring back the crime - "hacker" is starting to mean "creative entrepeneur"

michael howard
In reply to this post by y.vgr@free.fr
I think "Hackers vs MLM" would sum it up pretty well

2015-09-21 15:03 GMT-03:00 [hidden email] <[hidden email]>:
Le 21/09/2015 18:33, michael howard a écrit :
> The only way to keep from being assimilated, is to be bad for their ulcers.

Just think and work for freedom* and liberty** and their ulcers will
automatically come back.

Best regards
Yo

*liberté, indépendance,libération,faculté, facilité
** liberté, liberté individuelle, liberté de conscience, liberté d'allure


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Re: [hackerspaces] bring back the crime - "hacker" is starting to mean "creative entrepeneur"

hellekin-3
In reply to this post by Lisha Sterling
On 09/21/2015 04:50 PM, Lisha Sterling wrote:
>
> My favorite definition of Hacking is the one from St Jude. She said that
> hacking is the clever circumvention of obstacles whether those be in our
> (computer) systems, our ISPs, our governments or ourselves. I'd add that
> those obstacles may be in our environment or our culture as well.
>
> - lisha
>

Love it!

==
hk

--
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Re: [hackerspaces] bring back the crime - "hacker" is starting to mean "creative entrepeneur"

michael howard
mom and sister were discussing how "hacker" is related to "entrepreneur", asked me. 




2015-09-21 17:20 GMT-03:00 hellekin <[hidden email]>:
On 09/21/2015 04:50 PM, Lisha Sterling wrote:
>
> My favorite definition of Hacking is the one from St Jude. She said that
> hacking is the clever circumvention of obstacles whether those be in our
> (computer) systems, our ISPs, our governments or ourselves. I'd add that
> those obstacles may be in our environment or our culture as well.
>
> - lisha
>

Love it!

==
hk

--
 _ _     We are free to share code and we code to share freedom
(_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/
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Re: [hackerspaces] bring back the crime - "hacker" is starting to mean "creative entrepeneur"

Edward L Platt-3
Would you like to be a hackerpreneur? For 10 easy payments of $13.37 you can get my 7-part guide: "Be Excellent... Profit!"

Kisses and arduinos,
-Ed

On Mon, Sep 21, 2015 at 5:44 PM, michael howard <[hidden email]> wrote:
mom and sister were discussing how "hacker" is related to "entrepreneur", asked me. 




2015-09-21 17:20 GMT-03:00 hellekin <[hidden email]>:
On 09/21/2015 04:50 PM, Lisha Sterling wrote:
>
> My favorite definition of Hacking is the one from St Jude. She said that
> hacking is the clever circumvention of obstacles whether those be in our
> (computer) systems, our ISPs, our governments or ourselves. I'd add that
> those obstacles may be in our environment or our culture as well.
>
> - lisha
>

Love it!

==
hk

--
 _ _     We are free to share code and we code to share freedom
(_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/
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KC1DYK

Tips for stopping email overload: https://hbr.org/2012/02/stop-email-overload-1

This digital electronic mail message was sent from my general-purpose desktop personal computing machine.  Please forgive any overly-verbose, long-winded, rambling prose.

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Re: [hackerspaces] bring back the crime - "hacker" is starting to mean "creative entrepeneur"

Alex Porto
When I saw the message from Michael, I immediately also remembered that article sent by Dave. I've been seen a lot of things that relate to this article here (Brazil up-country). I thought this startup bubble had already popped out in other countries, but here it seems to be just starting to gain mainstream media.

It seems we have two waves on our space: When we first open it, we received a lot of CS students interested in "computer security", do to the "hacker" part or the name "hackerspace". Most of them vanished in a few months, when they saw us building labs for electronics and hard tools.

Now we have a lot of people interested on the this "startup entrepreneurship ". The city is receiving a lot of events related to these. Almost every weekend there's a hackathon where you have the opportunity to work for free during straight 48 hours for a given corporation. Well, not exactly free, since you get a t-shirt. Then, the next day, we have new visitors on our meetings, looking for technical partners to implement their disruptive ideas, or something like that.
 

On Mon, Sep 21, 2015 at 10:18 PM, Edward L Platt <[hidden email]> wrote:
Would you like to be a hackerpreneur? For 10 easy payments of $13.37 you can get my 7-part guide: "Be Excellent... Profit!"

Kisses and arduinos,
-Ed

On Mon, Sep 21, 2015 at 5:44 PM, michael howard <[hidden email]> wrote:
mom and sister were discussing how "hacker" is related to "entrepreneur", asked me. 




2015-09-21 17:20 GMT-03:00 hellekin <[hidden email]>:
On 09/21/2015 04:50 PM, Lisha Sterling wrote:
>
> My favorite definition of Hacking is the one from St Jude. She said that
> hacking is the clever circumvention of obstacles whether those be in our
> (computer) systems, our ISPs, our governments or ourselves. I'd add that
> those obstacles may be in our environment or our culture as well.
>
> - lisha
>

Love it!

==
hk

--
 _ _     We are free to share code and we code to share freedom
(_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/
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--
Edward L. Platt
PhD student, University of Michigan School of Information
KC1DYK

Tips for stopping email overload: https://hbr.org/2012/02/stop-email-overload-1

This digital electronic mail message was sent from my general-purpose desktop personal computing machine.  Please forgive any overly-verbose, long-winded, rambling prose.

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Re: [hackerspaces] bring back the crime - "hacker" is starting to mean "creative entrepeneur"

\0xDynamite
In reply to this post by michael howard
On 9/21/15, michael howard <[hidden email]> wrote:

> How far are we from "assimilated"?
>
> From here I am seeing tons and tons of people associating the word "hacker"
> with business concepts.
>
> "hacker" now invokes associations with "startup", "coworking", "hackathon",
> "creative initiative", and worst of all, "entrepeneur".
>
> Miss the good old association with crime - it made all these people stay
> very far away.
>
> At this rate "hacker" will soon mean multi-level-marketing.

Thank [Thor|Athena] that there's someone with some spirit on the list.
I always think I'm alone and that these hackers are more like a
constipated elves.  So I've stubbed a project on github called
"mayhem" under user "theProphet".  It's clear that few really know how
to make the hackerspace concept work and are as adventurous as a
granny after hip surgery.

Anyway, we can try hanging out there.

Marxos
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Re: [hackerspaces] bring back the crime - "hacker" is starting to mean "creative entrepeneur"

hellekin-3
On 09/22/2015 03:19 PM, Mark Rosenblitt-Janssen wrote:
>>
>> Miss the good old association with crime - it made all these people stay
>> very far away.
>>
>
> Thank [Thor|Athena] that there's someone with some spirit on the list.
>

I said earlier I didn't like the association with crime.  Probably you
misinterpreted it, so I want to clarify.  Before corporations invaded
the Internet, before firewalls existed, "computer crime" was probably
not a term at all.  "Computer fraud" was, with the meaning of "fraud
committed with a computer".  Fraud was the crime: not using a computer,
exploring networks, or gaining access to computers outside your premises.

When I said I didn't like the association with crime, it's because the
term "hacker" is not a made up thing like "intellectual property" that
confounds many different things into one meaningless term.  But it has
become just that, and the association with crime is part of why this
happened.  When journalists brandish "hacker", they never ever mean a
clever solution to a tricky problem, or going where nobody has gone
before (fortunately, hackers don't wear spandex uniforms).

What is considered crime is another part of the picture: it's certainly
a crime to penetrate an organization's network, extract secret document,
and blackmail the organization.  The crime is "blackmail".  Whether it
is a crime to penetrate an organization's network, extract secret
information, and blow the whistle is another case entirely; if the
secret document is revealing a crime, I think it's justice.  I see no
"crime" in hacking under the hacker ethics, yet most countries made it a
crime, and often one that makes guns and killing people more appealing
than hitting the Enter key.

The problem is not hacking, but the semantic field that's been applied
to it to blur its meaning.  Is a protest a crime?  In the last years we
can certainly wonder.  The skin of what constitutes a crime moves with
the society's breathing.  The original crime of hacking is to not remain
inside the preloaded squares of your life.  This happens to be the
original duty of any citizen in a democracy to question authority--and
I'm not only talking about government.

Cheers,

==
hk

--
 _ _     We are free to share code and we code to share freedom
(_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/
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Re: [hackerspaces] bring back the crime - "hacker" is starting to mean "creative entrepeneur"

Mitch Altman
Why would you want to keep people away from hackerspaces?  So many hackerspaces around the world are thriving communities because we are open to new people.  New people being new ideas, and new energy, and help us grow and stretch in ways that wouldn't be possible otherwise.  The world of hackerspaces has only grown because we are open to new people and ideas.

"Hacking" has many definitions.  The one Lisha wrote about is a great one.  And it is only good if we share it.

Let's keep sharing.

If someone becomes "assimilated", whatever, that's their choice.  Myself, I'll continue to encourage everyone I meet to explore and do what they might love to do.  Hackerspaces are fantastic communities for this.  I'd love to see more people, not less.  More people in the world need these opportunities for creation and community.

And, if people make some money, or, better yet, make a living from projects they love, all the better!  Sure beats working at some stupid job, yes?

Best,
Mitch.


> To: discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org
> From: hellekin@dyne.org
> Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 15:48:14 -0300
> Subject: Re: [hackerspaces] bring back the crime - "hacker" is starting to mean "creative entrepeneur"
>
> On 09/22/2015 03:19 PM, Mark Rosenblitt-Janssen wrote:
> >>
> >> Miss the good old association with crime - it made all these people stay
> >> very far away.
> >>
> >
> > Thank [Thor|Athena] that there's someone with some spirit on the list.
> >
>
> I said earlier I didn't like the association with crime. Probably you
> misinterpreted it, so I want to clarify. Before corporations invaded
> the Internet, before firewalls existed, "computer crime" was probably
> not a term at all. "Computer fraud" was, with the meaning of "fraud
> committed with a computer". Fraud was the crime: not using a computer,
> exploring networks, or gaining access to computers outside your premises.
>
> When I said I didn't like the association with crime, it's because the
> term "hacker" is not a made up thing like "intellectual property" that
> confounds many different things into one meaningless term. But it has
> become just that, and the association with crime is part of why this
> happened. When journalists brandish "hacker", they never ever mean a
> clever solution to a tricky problem, or going where nobody has gone
> before (fortunately, hackers don't wear spandex uniforms).
>
> What is considered crime is another part of the picture: it's certainly
> a crime to penetrate an organization's network, extract secret document,
> and blackmail the organization. The crime is "blackmail". Whether it
> is a crime to penetrate an organization's network, extract secret
> information, and blow the whistle is another case entirely; if the
> secret document is revealing a crime, I think it's justice. I see no
> "crime" in hacking under the hacker ethics, yet most countries made it a
> crime, and often one that makes guns and killing people more appealing
> than hitting the Enter key.
>
> The problem is not hacking, but the semantic field that's been applied
> to it to blur its meaning. Is a protest a crime? In the last years we
> can certainly wonder. The skin of what constitutes a crime moves with
> the society's breathing. The original crime of hacking is to not remain
> inside the preloaded squares of your life. This happens to be the
> original duty of any citizen in a democracy to question authority--and
> I'm not only talking about government.
>
> Cheers,
>
> ==
> hk
>
> --
> _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom
> (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org
> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

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Re: [hackerspaces] bring back the crime - "hacker" is starting to mean "creative entrepeneur"

\0xDynamite
In reply to this post by hellekin-3
On 9/22/15, hellekin <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 09/22/2015 03:19 PM, Mark Rosenblitt-Janssen wrote:
>>>
>>> Miss the good old association with crime - it made all these people stay
>>> very far away.
>>
>> Thank [Thor|Athena] that there's someone with some spirit on the list.
>
> I said earlier I didn't like the association with crime.  Probably you
> misinterpreted it, so I want to clarify.

It was Michael who made the statement about missing the association
with crime, not hellekin.  So let me clarify for YOU:  there was a day
(like when 9600 baud meant you were ELITE) when being a hacker meant
you *were* going where no one else had gone before.  Where you were
BREAKING new ground to create new understanding.  Not walking through
guidebooks that hold your hand the whole way which is what
hackerspaces have been doing.  Once in long while something creative
turns up in a hackerspace.  AND?!?

> When I said I didn't like the association with crime, it's because the
> term "hacker" is not a made up thing like "intellectual property" that
> confounds many different things into one meaningless term.

But that's what also makes it powerful.  You can always fall back on
the benign term.  And it SHOULD keep out those who want to make it
into a businessman.  You see, the association with crime makes it
mutually EXCLUSIVE to entrepreneurship.

> become just that, and the association with crime is part of why this
> happened.  When journalists brandish "hacker", they never ever mean a
> clever solution to a tricky problem, or going where nobody has gone
> before (fortunately, hackers don't wear spandex uniforms).
>
> What is considered crime is another part of the picture: it's certainly
> a crime to penetrate an organization's network, extract secret document,

Woah, woah woah, right there pardner.  It's not a crime until the
Judge says it's a crime. (At least if the term "criminal" means "one
who is guilty of a crime".) Until then it's just one or even two
branches of the government (in the US).  The Legislature can WRITE a
LAW, and the Executive can go ARREST the hacker, but whether it is
UNJUST is up to the judge -- not the police, not the lawmakers.
That's why there's a Judicial Branch.  Comprende?

Because, you don't know:  is the organization a criminal outfit?  Is
it stealing from the People what was given to them?  These are the
things the hacker needs to keep in mind for clever circumvention of
unnecessary or unrighteous obstacles.  One's liberty is absolute until
it infringes upon another's.  Whose liberty is being infringed upon
when a teenager dials up a huge mainframe at CorpX?

Marxos
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Re: [hackerspaces] bring back the crime - "hacker" is starting to mean "creative entrepeneur"

\0xDynamite
In reply to this post by Mitch Altman
On 9/22/15, Mitch Altman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Why would you want to keep people away from hackerspaces?  So many
> hackerspaces around the world are thriving communities because we are open
> to new people.  New people being new ideas, and new energy, and help us grow
> and stretch in ways that wouldn't be possible otherwise.  The world of
> hackerspaces has only grown because we are open to new people and ideas.
>
> "Hacking" has many definitions.  The one Lisha wrote about is a great one.
> And it is only good if we share it.
>
> Let's keep sharing.
>
> If someone becomes "assimilated", whatever, that's their choice.  Myself,
> I'll continue to encourage everyone I meet to explore and do what they might
> love to do.  Hackerspaces are fantastic communities for this.  I'd love to
> see more people, not less.

SO, Great!  Everyone, Mitch is inviting all potential hackers and
phreakers into Noisebridge to do what you love to do -- to EXPLORE
...shall we say?

> And, if people make some money, or, better yet, make a living from projects
> they love, all the better!  Sure beats working at some stupid job, yes?

EXACTLY!  May the beauty of the baud, re-unite! At:

Noisebridge,
2169 Mission St,
San Francisco, CA 94110

The Doors ARE OPEN!  (Or will BE!  MuHAHAA)

> Best,
> Mitch.

Roger and out!

Marxos
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Re: [hackerspaces] bring back the crime - "hacker" is starting to mean "creative entrepeneur"

hellekin-3
In reply to this post by \0xDynamite
On 09/22/2015 09:10 PM, Mark Rosenblitt-Janssen wrote:
>
> It was Michael who made the statement about missing the association
> with crime, not hellekin.
>

Right.

> BREAKING new ground to create new understanding.  Not walking through
> guidebooks that hold your hand the whole way which is what
> hackerspaces have been doing.  Once in long while something creative
> turns up in a hackerspace.  AND?!?
>

You didn't finish your line of thought.  Anyway, I can't see why walking
through guidebooks wouldn't be inspiring for doing creative
things--one's gotta get inspiration from somewhere.  If you don't go
through basic mathematics, chances are you won't break any new ground in
mathematics.  But I'll retain this sentence because it's relevant:
"BREAKING new ground to create new understanding".  I think that Mitch's
TV-B-Gone did exactly that.  And it also served as inspiration to create
Consumer-B-Gone.  Without TV-B-Gone, would have Consumer-B-Gone be
created?  Maybe, maybe not.  But it certainly was an inspiration to
create a device that blocks the cart wheels in supermarkets, in an
analogy--or as an extension--of shutting down TV sets around you.  None
of these projects are illegal, although they may be punished as if you
were a criminal when you're caught smiling too much.  Does the crime
makes the hack?  Only, IMO, if you're in a dick contest in a high-school
classroom.

>> When I said I didn't like the association with crime, it's because the
>> term "hacker" is not a made up thing like "intellectual property" that
>> confounds many different things into one meaningless term.
>
> But that's what also makes it powerful.
>

Define "it"?  I can't follow your thought, again.

> You see, the association with crime makes it mutually EXCLUSIVE to
> entrepreneurship.
>

I can't see why.  Have you heard about Volkswagen recently?

>
> Woah, woah woah, right there pardner.  It's not a crime until the
> Judge says it's a crime.
>

So you mean that it's fine that other people define the terms for you.
I don't mean to offend you, after all, if The Mentor had not been
arrested, we wouldn't have his Manifesto.  But...

> Comprende?
>

No, I don't.  I was telling that "crime" is relative.  Not only to
justice or the law, but also to who's allegedly committed it, who's
judging...  Remember?  That was the part you cut on "and blackmailing";
same sentence, one meaning.  If you cut it in the middle, it loses its
meaning.  I was also mentioning the fact computer fraud can be punished
more severely than murder.  Entiendes?

> Because, you don't know:  is the organization a criminal outfit?
>

This is exactly what my sentence was saying, but you didn't read it.

> These are the
> things the hacker needs to keep in mind for clever circumvention of
> unnecessary or unrighteous obstacles.
>

See, we agree.

>  One's liberty is absolute until it infringes upon another's.
>

Here we don't anymore.  I think that one's liberty is never absolute.
One's liberty is only as strong as other people's liberty: the freer you
are, the freer I can be; as long as there are slaves, I won't be free.

>  Whose liberty is being infringed upon
> when a teenager dials up a huge mainframe at CorpX?
>

It all depends on what the teenager is doing with the knowledge they get
from this access.

==
hk

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Re: [hackerspaces] bring back the crime - "hacker" is starting to mean "creative entrepeneur"

\0xDynamite
On 9/22/15, hellekin <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 09/22/2015 09:10 PM, Mark Rosenblitt-Janssen wrote:
>>
>> It was Michael who made the statement about missing the association
>> with crime, not hellekin.
>
> Right.
>
>> BREAKING new ground to create new understanding.  Not walking through
>> guidebooks that hold your hand the whole way which is what
>> hackerspaces have been doing.  Once in long while something creative
>> turns up in a hackerspace.  AND?!?
>>
>
> You didn't finish your line of thought.  Anyway, I can't see why walking
> through guidebooks wouldn't be inspiring for doing creative
> things--one's gotta get inspiration from somewhere.  If you don't go
> through basic mathematics, chances are you won't break any new ground in
> mathematics.  But I'll retain this sentence because it's relevant:
> "BREAKING new ground to create new understanding".  I think that Mitch's
> TV-B-Gone did exactly that.

Ah, but Steve Wozniak broke that ground (messing w/other's TV sets)
decades ago:  http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2013/02/the-definitive-story-of-steve-wozniak-steve-jobs-and-phone-phreaking/273331/

Admittingly, Mitch's shuts off the TV.  Better hack?  Yesterday, no.
Today, maybe.

> And it also served as inspiration to create
> Consumer-B-Gone.  Without TV-B-Gone, would have Consumer-B-Gone be
> created?  Maybe, maybe not.  But it certainly was an inspiration to
> create a device that blocks the cart wheels in supermarkets, in an
> analogy--or as an extension--of shutting down TV sets around you.  None
> of these projects are illegal,

That's probably not true.  You've interfered with someone's private
liberty or legitimate business.

> although they may be punished as if you
> were a criminal when you're caught smiling too much.  Does the crime
> makes the hack?  Only, IMO, if you're in a dick contest in a high-school
> classroom.

No, you don't get it.  I thought I was being clear.  America was built
on protest -- on things that were considered crimes by the authorities
at the time, but are now considered patriotic acts.  Is that a dick
contest?  No -- you got to stop sucking the dick for the Man, man, so
you can see the difference.

>>> When I said I didn't like the association with crime, it's because the
>>> term "hacker" is not a made up thing like "intellectual property" that
>>> confounds many different things into one meaningless term.
>>
>> But that's what also makes it powerful.
>
> Define "it"?  I can't follow your thought, again.

Use of the word "hacker".  It's ambiguity can also be used on it's behalf.

>> You see, the association with crime makes it mutually EXCLUSIVE to
>> entrepreneurship.
>
> I can't see why.  Have you heard about Volkswagen recently?

Nope.

>> Woah, woah woah, right there pardner.  It's not a crime until the
>> Judge says it's a crime.
>
> So you mean that it's fine that other people define the terms for you.

Other people define the terms?   I'm the friggin' attorney doing the
arguing to the Judge, here.  It's my and your Law, remember?  Didn't
you read "Hack the Law" on the wiki?

> I don't mean to offend you, after all,

No, no.  Not offended.  Disappointed.  That you guys want to be called
hackers and get all the "juice" without doing much of the sweat and
blood and tears.

> I was also mentioning the fact computer fraud can be punished
> more severely than murder.  Entiendes?

Could be, but that's because people don't know how to argue their own
law and get intimidated by the non-legal monopoly of the legal
establishment.

>> Because, you don't know:  is the organization a criminal outfit?
>
> This is exactly what my sentence was saying, but you didn't read it.

I read it, but you equivocated on the word "crime" within the same
paragraph.  I chose your first meaning.

>> These are the
>> things the hacker needs to keep in mind for clever circumvention of
>> unnecessary or unrighteous obstacles.
>
> See, we agree.

Oh, it's easy to agree when you're staying legal and it's all intellectual.

>>  One's liberty is absolute until it infringes upon another's.
>
> Here we don't anymore.  I think that one's liberty is never absolute.

I said absolute UNTIL it fringes upon another's -- otherwise why
should anyone block your exercise of liberty?

> One's liberty is only as strong as other people's liberty: the freer you
> are, the freer I can be; as long as there are slaves, I won't be free.

Well, my friend, if you're going to go that far, you might as well as
admit you're not free.  The Indians still don't have the same freedoms
and liberty that they should.  So you might actually have to break a
law or two if you're interested in walking the walk.

>>  Whose liberty is being infringed upon
>> when a teenager dials up a huge mainframe at CorpX?
>
> It all depends on what the teenager is doing with the knowledge they get
> from this access.

Oh, but no need to go that far, the law says he already committed a
crime.  So no need to address what he does afterwards yet.

Marxos
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Re: [hackerspaces] bring back the crime - "hacker" is starting to mean "creative entrepeneur"

Michel Gallant
In reply to this post by Mitch Altman


On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 5:41 PM, Mitch Altman <[hidden email]> wrote:
Why would you want to keep people away from hackerspaces?  So many hackerspaces around the world are thriving communities because we are open to new people.  New people being new ideas, and new energy, and help us grow and stretch in ways that wouldn't be possible otherwise.  The world of hackerspaces has only grown because we are open to new people and ideas.
Dude, if you think that, you're being willfully ignorant of the elitism and one-upmanship present in hackerspaces, especially those that focus on computer security. I don't think you're that ignorant, so please stop pretending and acknowledge the reality.

 

"Hacking" has many definitions.  The one Lisha wrote about is a great one.  And it is only good if we share it.

Let's keep sharing.

If someone becomes "assimilated", whatever, that's their choice.  Myself, I'll continue to encourage everyone I meet to explore and do what they might love to do.  Hackerspaces are fantastic communities for this.  I'd love to see more people, not less.  More people in the world need these opportunities for creation and community.

And, if people make some money, or, better yet, make a living from projects they love, all the better!  Sure beats working at some stupid job, yes?

Best,
Mitch.


> To: [hidden email]
> From: [hidden email]
> Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 15:48:14 -0300
> Subject: Re: [hackerspaces] bring back the crime - "hacker" is starting to mean "creative entrepeneur"

>
> On 09/22/2015 03:19 PM, Mark Rosenblitt-Janssen wrote:
> >>
> >> Miss the good old association with crime - it made all these people stay
> >> very far away.
> >>
> >
> > Thank [Thor|Athena] that there's someone with some spirit on the list.
> >
>
> I said earlier I didn't like the association with crime. Probably you
> misinterpreted it, so I want to clarify. Before corporations invaded
> the Internet, before firewalls existed, "computer crime" was probably
> not a term at all. "Computer fraud" was, with the meaning of "fraud
> committed with a computer". Fraud was the crime: not using a computer,
> exploring networks, or gaining access to computers outside your premises.
>
> When I said I didn't like the association with crime, it's because the
> term "hacker" is not a made up thing like "intellectual property" that
> confounds many different things into one meaningless term. But it has
> become just that, and the association with crime is part of why this
> happened. When journalists brandish "hacker", they never ever mean a
> clever solution to a tricky problem, or going where nobody has gone
> before (fortunately, hackers don't wear spandex uniforms).
>
> What is considered crime is another part of the picture: it's certainly
> a crime to penetrate an organization's network, extract secret document,
> and blackmail the organization. The crime is "blackmail". Whether it
> is a crime to penetrate an organization's network, extract secret
> information, and blow the whistle is another case entirely; if the
> secret document is revealing a crime, I think it's justice. I see no
> "crime" in hacking under the hacker ethics, yet most countries made it a
> crime, and often one that makes guns and killing people more appealing
> than hitting the Enter key.
>
> The problem is not hacking, but the semantic field that's been applied
> to it to blur its meaning. Is a protest a crime? In the last years we
> can certainly wonder. The skin of what constitutes a crime moves with
> the society's breathing. The original crime of hacking is to not remain
> inside the preloaded squares of your life. This happens to be the
> original duty of any citizen in a democracy to question authority--and
> I'm not only talking about government.
>
> Cheers,
>
> ==
> hk
>
> --
> _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom
> (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

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Re: [hackerspaces] bring back the crime - "hacker" is starting to mean "creative entrepeneur"

michael howard

Please, lets try to keep from flaming. It ruins any debate.

I think we can all agree we want the "hacker spirit" to continue alive, well, and irreverent.  Even while going mainstream, which already is happening.

It'snot a question of being elitist or excluding people, but of educating, encouraging, and highlighting excellent hacking, and I think improving society.

Perhaps the question is, what to do if perhaps "hacker tennis shoes", "hacker hamburger", "hacker fashion wear", "hacker home decoration" and "hacker marketing concepts" start to appear.

It generally happens if there nothing that maintains a reasonable meaning.  Of what is the term "hacker" - and by consequence, what is not?

Some say that most never even claim they are hackers - it is a community of generally humble, usually not very spotlight-loving people.

It is more of a title earned through recognition, from others of the group.  Which seems quite reasonable.

Em 23/09/2015 1:47 AM, "Michel Gallant" <[hidden email]> escreveu:


On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 5:41 PM, Mitch Altman <[hidden email]> wrote:
Why would you want to keep people away from hackerspaces?  So many hackerspaces around the world are thriving communities because we are open to new people.  New people being new ideas, and new energy, and help us grow and stretch in ways that wouldn't be possible otherwise.  The world of hackerspaces has only grown because we are open to new people and ideas.
Dude, if you think that, you're being willfully ignorant of the elitism and one-upmanship present in hackerspaces, especially those that focus on computer security. I don't think you're that ignorant, so please stop pretending and acknowledge the reality.

 

"Hacking" has many definitions.  The one Lisha wrote about is a great one.  And it is only good if we share it.

Let's keep sharing.

If someone becomes "assimilated", whatever, that's their choice.  Myself, I'll continue to encourage everyone I meet to explore and do what they might love to do.  Hackerspaces are fantastic communities for this.  I'd love to see more people, not less.  More people in the world need these opportunities for creation and community.

And, if people make some money, or, better yet, make a living from projects they love, all the better!  Sure beats working at some stupid job, yes?

Best,
Mitch.


> To: [hidden email]
> From: [hidden email]
> Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 15:48:14 -0300
> Subject: Re: [hackerspaces] bring back the crime - "hacker" is starting to mean "creative entrepeneur"

>
> On 09/22/2015 03:19 PM, Mark Rosenblitt-Janssen wrote:
> >>
> >> Miss the good old association with crime - it made all these people stay
> >> very far away.
> >>
> >
> > Thank [Thor|Athena] that there's someone with some spirit on the list.
> >
>
> I said earlier I didn't like the association with crime. Probably you
> misinterpreted it, so I want to clarify. Before corporations invaded
> the Internet, before firewalls existed, "computer crime" was probably
> not a term at all. "Computer fraud" was, with the meaning of "fraud
> committed with a computer". Fraud was the crime: not using a computer,
> exploring networks, or gaining access to computers outside your premises.
>
> When I said I didn't like the association with crime, it's because the
> term "hacker" is not a made up thing like "intellectual property" that
> confounds many different things into one meaningless term. But it has
> become just that, and the association with crime is part of why this
> happened. When journalists brandish "hacker", they never ever mean a
> clever solution to a tricky problem, or going where nobody has gone
> before (fortunately, hackers don't wear spandex uniforms).
>
> What is considered crime is another part of the picture: it's certainly
> a crime to penetrate an organization's network, extract secret document,
> and blackmail the organization. The crime is "blackmail". Whether it
> is a crime to penetrate an organization's network, extract secret
> information, and blow the whistle is another case entirely; if the
> secret document is revealing a crime, I think it's justice. I see no
> "crime" in hacking under the hacker ethics, yet most countries made it a
> crime, and often one that makes guns and killing people more appealing
> than hitting the Enter key.
>
> The problem is not hacking, but the semantic field that's been applied
> to it to blur its meaning. Is a protest a crime? In the last years we
> can certainly wonder. The skin of what constitutes a crime moves with
> the society's breathing. The original crime of hacking is to not remain
> inside the preloaded squares of your life. This happens to be the
> original duty of any citizen in a democracy to question authority--and
> I'm not only talking about government.
>
> Cheers,
>
> ==
> hk
>
> --
> _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom
> (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

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