[hackerspaces] Your mission statement vs the law, re bigotry and "terrorism".

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[hackerspaces] Your mission statement vs the law, re bigotry and "terrorism".

Sparr
I've been on the losing side of lighter versions of this argument a few times over the past ten years, at various hackerspaces. A lot of people claim that they think that the law trumps a space's charter or mission statement.

Here in the USA, we're looking at a future where it is scarily plausible that some segment of the population will be banned from a lot of activities, which might include things such as "taking machine shop classes" or "working with explosive gases".

When your state or federal legislature passes a law, or your president issues an executive order, that says Muslims (or some ethnic minority) can't do those things, where will you stand on whether your space follows that law or not?

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Re: [hackerspaces] Your mission statement vs the law, re bigotry and "terrorism".

Christopher Agocs

Sparr, I think you know me well enough to know that I will be the first to provide my space's members with jackboots.


On Jul 22, 2016 4:06 PM, "Sparr" <[hidden email]> wrote:
I've been on the losing side of lighter versions of this argument a few times over the past ten years, at various hackerspaces. A lot of people claim that they think that the law trumps a space's charter or mission statement.

Here in the USA, we're looking at a future where it is scarily plausible that some segment of the population will be banned from a lot of activities, which might include things such as "taking machine shop classes" or "working with explosive gases".

When your state or federal legislature passes a law, or your president issues an executive order, that says Muslims (or some ethnic minority) can't do those things, where will you stand on whether your space follows that law or not?

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Re: [hackerspaces] Your mission statement vs the law, re bigotry and "terrorism".

Volatile Compound
In reply to this post by Sparr
Voting from the rooftops sounds like a reasonable approach at that point.

- skroo.

On 7/22/16 4:05 PM, Sparr wrote:

> I've been on the losing side of lighter versions of this argument a few
> times over the past ten years, at various hackerspaces. A lot of people
> claim that they think that the law trumps a space's charter or mission
> statement.
>
> Here in the USA, we're looking at a future where it is scarily plausible
> that some segment of the population will be banned from a lot of
> activities, which might include things such as "taking machine shop
> classes" or "working with explosive gases".
>
> When your state or federal legislature passes a law, or your president
> issues an executive order, that says Muslims (or some ethnic minority)
> can't do those things, where will you stand on whether your space
> follows that law or not?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>
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Re: [hackerspaces] Your mission statement vs the law, re bigotry and "terrorism".

Jurgen Gaeremyn
In reply to this post by Sparr

Just a stupid question: do you put ethnicity and religion as questionnaire fields in your registration form?

If you don't ask, you don't know. And if you have no indication to suspect "such dangerous behaviour as being muslim" (sic) ... there's no indication to ban them from whatever course. It has never been your job to do an identity check, and even the act of asking... I don't think you even have the right to investigate their answers.

Obviously, you could put a waiver in your registration form that members are not allowed to apply their skills developed in this hackerspace to engage in terrorist or other forms of illegal activity. You could even have fun in writing it in such a broad or silly way that lawyers would have a hell of a time applying it in court...

If anyone ever comments on the validity of this, just ask the question how you should validate if one is muslim? (just as a pun: according to those muslims that engage in terrorist activity, all other muslims are not true muslims, and it is allowed to lie against "kufar" - so the muslim not respecting you will deny being a muslim and you will stigmatize the honest ones with no malintentions)

Just my thaught
Jurgen

On 22-07-16 23:05, Sparr wrote:
I've been on the losing side of lighter versions of this argument a few times over the past ten years, at various hackerspaces. A lot of people claim that they think that the law trumps a space's charter or mission statement.

Here in the USA, we're looking at a future where it is scarily plausible that some segment of the population will be banned from a lot of activities, which might include things such as "taking machine shop classes" or "working with explosive gases".

When your state or federal legislature passes a law, or your president issues an executive order, that says Muslims (or some ethnic minority) can't do those things, where will you stand on whether your space follows that law or not?


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Re: [hackerspaces] Your mission statement vs the law, re bigotry and "terrorism".

Christie Dudley-2

It is a little-known fact that it is perfectly legitimate to refuse to comply with a law if you have a good-faith argument that the law should change. You would have a good faith First Amendment challenge to a law denying people of a certain religion a freedom others enjoy.

What I have seen in culture generally, but manifest more specifically in hackerspaces is the assumption that certain things are somehow law (such as restricting general public access to dangerous tools or police authority, discrimination or non-discrimination, etc.) that do not exist in any law, whether precedent or legislative, or that don't apply as generally as most believe. Yet I see many hackerspaces who believe they must integrate these perceived laws or rules into their mission statement or operating practices.

This is much the same mentality that gave the recording industry the foundation for their huge rulings against relatively innocent people: the belief that something is really illegal is inculcated into society then people in general begin to uphold the belief in court through the jury deliberation process. (As an aside, this is why we HAVE juries in the US - so that the sentiment of society can be reflected in court decisions.)

As hackers, we are all in a unique position to challenge the hegemonic tendency of culture and the sway of large organizational interests to change what we believe is legal, gently pushing back on what we believe to be right and just.

So make your rules and mission statements to be what you believe is RIGHT, not what you believe to be LEGAL unless you actually are a lawyer who practices in the area. Don't let other interests shift our culture away from it.

Christie Dudley


On 7/22/2016 11:41 PM, Jurgen Gaeremyn wrote:

Just a stupid question: do you put ethnicity and religion as questionnaire fields in your registration form?

If you don't ask, you don't know. And if you have no indication to suspect "such dangerous behaviour as being muslim" (sic) ... there's no indication to ban them from whatever course. It has never been your job to do an identity check, and even the act of asking... I don't think you even have the right to investigate their answers.

Obviously, you could put a waiver in your registration form that members are not allowed to apply their skills developed in this hackerspace to engage in terrorist or other forms of illegal activity. You could even have fun in writing it in such a broad or silly way that lawyers would have a hell of a time applying it in court...

If anyone ever comments on the validity of this, just ask the question how you should validate if one is muslim? (just as a pun: according to those muslims that engage in terrorist activity, all other muslims are not true muslims, and it is allowed to lie against "kufar" - so the muslim not respecting you will deny being a muslim and you will stigmatize the honest ones with no malintentions)

Just my thaught
Jurgen

On 22-07-16 23:05, Sparr wrote:
I've been on the losing side of lighter versions of this argument a few times over the past ten years, at various hackerspaces. A lot of people claim that they think that the law trumps a space's charter or mission statement.

Here in the USA, we're looking at a future where it is scarily plausible that some segment of the population will be banned from a lot of activities, which might include things such as "taking machine shop classes" or "working with explosive gases".

When your state or federal legislature passes a law, or your president issues an executive order, that says Muslims (or some ethnic minority) can't do those things, where will you stand on whether your space follows that law or not?


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Re: [hackerspaces] Your mission statement vs the law, re bigotry and "terrorism".

Matt Joyce
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60tUmfYlymM  Hank Johnson on c-span is basically a religious experience for me.

On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 1:40 PM, Christie Dudley <[hidden email]> wrote:

It is a little-known fact that it is perfectly legitimate to refuse to comply with a law if you have a good-faith argument that the law should change. You would have a good faith First Amendment challenge to a law denying people of a certain religion a freedom others enjoy.

What I have seen in culture generally, but manifest more specifically in hackerspaces is the assumption that certain things are somehow law (such as restricting general public access to dangerous tools or police authority, discrimination or non-discrimination, etc.) that do not exist in any law, whether precedent or legislative, or that don't apply as generally as most believe. Yet I see many hackerspaces who believe they must integrate these perceived laws or rules into their mission statement or operating practices.

This is much the same mentality that gave the recording industry the foundation for their huge rulings against relatively innocent people: the belief that something is really illegal is inculcated into society then people in general begin to uphold the belief in court through the jury deliberation process. (As an aside, this is why we HAVE juries in the US - so that the sentiment of society can be reflected in court decisions.)

As hackers, we are all in a unique position to challenge the hegemonic tendency of culture and the sway of large organizational interests to change what we believe is legal, gently pushing back on what we believe to be right and just.

So make your rules and mission statements to be what you believe is RIGHT, not what you believe to be LEGAL unless you actually are a lawyer who practices in the area. Don't let other interests shift our culture away from it.

Christie Dudley


On 7/22/2016 11:41 PM, Jurgen Gaeremyn wrote:

Just a stupid question: do you put ethnicity and religion as questionnaire fields in your registration form?

If you don't ask, you don't know. And if you have no indication to suspect "such dangerous behaviour as being muslim" (sic) ... there's no indication to ban them from whatever course. It has never been your job to do an identity check, and even the act of asking... I don't think you even have the right to investigate their answers.

Obviously, you could put a waiver in your registration form that members are not allowed to apply their skills developed in this hackerspace to engage in terrorist or other forms of illegal activity. You could even have fun in writing it in such a broad or silly way that lawyers would have a hell of a time applying it in court...

If anyone ever comments on the validity of this, just ask the question how you should validate if one is muslim? (just as a pun: according to those muslims that engage in terrorist activity, all other muslims are not true muslims, and it is allowed to lie against "kufar" - so the muslim not respecting you will deny being a muslim and you will stigmatize the honest ones with no malintentions)

Just my thaught
Jurgen

On 22-07-16 23:05, Sparr wrote:
I've been on the losing side of lighter versions of this argument a few times over the past ten years, at various hackerspaces. A lot of people claim that they think that the law trumps a space's charter or mission statement.

Here in the USA, we're looking at a future where it is scarily plausible that some segment of the population will be banned from a lot of activities, which might include things such as "taking machine shop classes" or "working with explosive gases".

When your state or federal legislature passes a law, or your president issues an executive order, that says Muslims (or some ethnic minority) can't do those things, where will you stand on whether your space follows that law or not?


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