[hackerspaces] Harassment and anti-discrimation policies

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[hackerspaces] Harassment and anti-discrimation policies

Bill Shaw-2
Tampa Hackerspace reached out to our insurance agent to see about D&O (directors and officers) insurance. We were informed that we need both harassment and anti-discrimination policies in place before we apply. They didn't have any boilerplate text for these policies. 

Has anyone else obtained this form of insurance and created suitable policies?

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Re: [hackerspaces] Harassment and anti-discrimation policies

Christopher Agocs
SSH:Chicago uses a Code of Conduct forked from PyCon 2013 CoC, available here: https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/
I don't know if that will suffice for D&O insurance, but it'd be worth asking.
-Chris

On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 10:04 AM Bill Shaw <[hidden email]> wrote:
Tampa Hackerspace reached out to our insurance agent to see about D&O (directors and officers) insurance. We were informed that we need both harassment and anti-discrimination policies in place before we apply. They didn't have any boilerplate text for these policies. 

Has anyone else obtained this form of insurance and created suitable policies?
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Re: [hackerspaces] Harassment and anti-discrimation policies

Pete Prodoehl

Milwaukee Makerspace has a Code of Conduct and Anti-Harassment policy on our wiki:

    http://wiki.milwaukeemakerspace.org/newmemberpamphlet


I believe we borrowed heavily from Pumping Station: One and others...


Pete


On 1/14/16 10:11 AM, Chris Agocs wrote:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="SSH:Chicago">SSH:Chicago uses a Code of Conduct forked from PyCon 2013 CoC, available here: https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/
I don't know if that will suffice for D&O insurance, but it'd be worth asking.
-Chris

On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 10:04 AM Bill Shaw <[hidden email]> wrote:
Tampa Hackerspace reached out to our insurance agent to see about D&O (directors and officers) insurance. We were informed that we need both harassment and anti-discrimination policies in place before we apply. They didn't have any boilerplate text for these policies. 

Has anyone else obtained this form of insurance and created suitable policies?
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Re: [hackerspaces] Harassment and anti-discrimation policies

Edward L Platt-3
For anti-harassment, i3 Detroit uses: https://www.i3detroit.org/wiki/Harassment_Policy

There's also an anti-discrimination clause in the i3 Detroit bylaws: https://www.i3detroit.org/wiki/Bylaws#Article_11._Nondiscrimination

The Ada Initiative has some boilerplate as well (yes, I know the group is problematic).

Happy hacking,
-Ed

On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 11:15 AM, Pete Prodoehl <[hidden email]> wrote:

Milwaukee Makerspace has a Code of Conduct and Anti-Harassment policy on our wiki:

    http://wiki.milwaukeemakerspace.org/newmemberpamphlet


I believe we borrowed heavily from Pumping Station: One and others...


Pete



On 1/14/16 10:11 AM, Chris Agocs wrote:
SSH:Chicago uses a Code of Conduct forked from PyCon 2013 CoC, available here: https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/
I don't know if that will suffice for D&O insurance, but it'd be worth asking.
-Chris

On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 10:04 AM Bill Shaw <[hidden email][hidden email]> wrote:
Tampa Hackerspace reached out to our insurance agent to see about D&O (directors and officers) insurance. We were informed that we need both harassment and anti-discrimination policies in place before we apply. They didn't have any boilerplate text for these policies. 

Has anyone else obtained this form of insurance and created suitable policies?
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--
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KC1DYK

Tips for stopping email overload: https://hbr.org/2012/02/stop-email-overload-1

This digital electronic mail message was sent from my general-purpose desktop personal computing machine.  Please forgive any overly-verbose, long-winded, rambling prose.

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Re: [hackerspaces] Harassment and anti-discrimation policies

Sparr
In reply to this post by Bill Shaw-2
It's very easy to write a harassment policy that defines any behavior at all as possibly-harassment, effectively saying nothing. Please try to avoid this.

On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 8:04 AM, Bill Shaw <[hidden email]> wrote:
Tampa Hackerspace reached out to our insurance agent to see about D&O (directors and officers) insurance. We were informed that we need both harassment and anti-discrimination policies in place before we apply. They didn't have any boilerplate text for these policies. 

Has anyone else obtained this form of insurance and created suitable policies?

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Re: [hackerspaces] Harassment and anti-discrimation policies

\0xDynamite
You're being given the runaround by the Establishment.  If the
insurance company is asking for that it's because they want to make
sure they're not insuring some asshole.  It's better for you and them
to know that you're not.

People who harass wouldn't care -- they already know they're crossing
a line.  Such policies are just legal poppycock.  Like a peacock- a
great show but when he opens his mouth, it's just a squa(c)k.

\m

On 1/14/16, Sparr <[hidden email]> wrote:

> It's very easy to write a harassment policy that defines any behavior at
> all as possibly-harassment, effectively saying nothing. Please try to avoid
> this.
>
> On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 8:04 AM, Bill Shaw <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Tampa Hackerspace reached out to our insurance agent to see about D&O
>> (directors and officers) insurance. We were informed that we need both
>> harassment and anti-discrimination policies in place before we apply.
>> They
>> didn't have any boilerplate text for these policies.
>>
>> Has anyone else obtained this form of insurance and created suitable
>> policies?
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Discuss mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>
>>
>
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Re: [hackerspaces] Harassment and anti-discrimation policies

Arclight
The last comment is spot-on.  The actual bad actors know exactly who
they are and what they're doing.  No amount of policy, pledges or
"safe-space" declarations will change that.  People like that thrive
on discord, and are also masters at "just poking over the line" enough
to get themselves off, but not get arrested/banned per the letter of
policy, etc.

If you need something for your insurance carrier, come up with a very
generic policy that specifies behavior that is illegal being causes
for immediate termination, and unacceptable behavior subject to action
by the board.  Pass it at a board meeting if they find it acceptable.
 There's no need to enumerate every possible transgression that humans
will make against one another.  Getting rid of the bad apples quickly
and effectively should be the job of the board.

Arclight

On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 1:14 PM, Xer0Dynamite <[hidden email]> wrote:

> You're being given the runaround by the Establishment.  If the
> insurance company is asking for that it's because they want to make
> sure they're not insuring some asshole.  It's better for you and them
> to know that you're not.
>
> People who harass wouldn't care -- they already know they're crossing
> a line.  Such policies are just legal poppycock.  Like a peacock- a
> great show but when he opens his mouth, it's just a squa(c)k.
>
> \m
>
> On 1/14/16, Sparr <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> It's very easy to write a harassment policy that defines any behavior at
>> all as possibly-harassment, effectively saying nothing. Please try to avoid
>> this.
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 8:04 AM, Bill Shaw <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Tampa Hackerspace reached out to our insurance agent to see about D&O
>>> (directors and officers) insurance. We were informed that we need both
>>> harassment and anti-discrimination policies in place before we apply.
>>> They
>>> didn't have any boilerplate text for these policies.
>>>
>>> Has anyone else obtained this form of insurance and created suitable
>>> policies?
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Discuss mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>>
>>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
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Re: [hackerspaces] Harassment and anti-discrimation policies

Shirley Hicks
In reply to this post by \0xDynamite
That may be the case, Xer0Dynamite - but there are real requirements to working successfully with that establishment.

In the makerish approach - today’s current building codes were all written (over the past 100 years) because in each originating incident - someone died.
And in the insurance business, those policies are requested because someone sued (in my experience, with cause) and won.

Insurance companies are in the risk reduction business.

Shirley Hicks
Red Mountain Makers.

> On Jan 14, 2016, at 3:14 PM, Xer0Dynamite <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> You're being given the runaround by the Establishment.  If the
> insurance company is asking for that it's because they want to make
> sure they're not insuring some asshole.  It's better for you and them
> to know that you're not.
>
> People who harass wouldn't care -- they already know they're crossing
> a line.  Such policies are just legal poppycock.  Like a peacock- a
> great show but when he opens his mouth, it's just a squa(c)k.
>
> \m
>
> On 1/14/16, Sparr <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> It's very easy to write a harassment policy that defines any behavior at
>> all as possibly-harassment, effectively saying nothing. Please try to avoid
>> this.
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 8:04 AM, Bill Shaw <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Tampa Hackerspace reached out to our insurance agent to see about D&O
>>> (directors and officers) insurance. We were informed that we need both
>>> harassment and anti-discrimination policies in place before we apply.
>>> They
>>> didn't have any boilerplate text for these policies.
>>>
>>> Has anyone else obtained this form of insurance and created suitable
>>> policies?
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Discuss mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>>
>>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

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Re: [hackerspaces] Harassment and anti-discrimation policies

Sam Ley
A harassment policy won't stop someone from harassing people by itself. For us, the purpose it serves is to let everyone else know that they have the organization's back, and make them more confident in speaking up if there is a problem.

Writing it in a neat little paragraph may be needed for documentation reasons, but what really gives it strength is frequent reinforcement at gatherings, meetings, and through your actions.

Sam
Phoenix Asylum
Boulder, CO

On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 2:36 PM, Shirley Hicks <[hidden email]> wrote:
That may be the case, Xer0Dynamite - but there are real requirements to working successfully with that establishment.

In the makerish approach - today’s current building codes were all written (over the past 100 years) because in each originating incident - someone died.
And in the insurance business, those policies are requested because someone sued (in my experience, with cause) and won.

Insurance companies are in the risk reduction business.

Shirley Hicks
Red Mountain Makers.

> On Jan 14, 2016, at 3:14 PM, Xer0Dynamite <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> You're being given the runaround by the Establishment.  If the
> insurance company is asking for that it's because they want to make
> sure they're not insuring some asshole.  It's better for you and them
> to know that you're not.
>
> People who harass wouldn't care -- they already know they're crossing
> a line.  Such policies are just legal poppycock.  Like a peacock- a
> great show but when he opens his mouth, it's just a squa(c)k.
>
> \m
>
> On 1/14/16, Sparr <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> It's very easy to write a harassment policy that defines any behavior at
>> all as possibly-harassment, effectively saying nothing. Please try to avoid
>> this.
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 8:04 AM, Bill Shaw <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Tampa Hackerspace reached out to our insurance agent to see about D&O
>>> (directors and officers) insurance. We were informed that we need both
>>> harassment and anti-discrimination policies in place before we apply.
>>> They
>>> didn't have any boilerplate text for these policies.
>>>
>>> Has anyone else obtained this form of insurance and created suitable
>>> policies?
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Discuss mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>>
>>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

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Re: [hackerspaces] Harassment and anti-discrimation policies

Moritz
In reply to this post by Bill Shaw-2
On 01/14/2016 05:04 PM, Bill Shaw wrote:
> Tampa Hackerspace reached out to our insurance agent to see about D&O
> (directors and officers) insurance. We were informed that we need both
> harassment and anti-discrimination policies in place before we apply.
> They didn't have any boilerplate text for these policies.
>
> Has anyone else obtained this form of insurance and created suitable
> policies?

Did you try to hand in the hacker ethics? It contains both
anti-harassment as well as anti-discrimination policies.
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Re: [hackerspaces] Harassment and anti-discrimation policies

Arclight
We're definitely talking about two different things. One is legal
compliance, and my advice is to make any policy needed for insurance,
a lease, etc be as generic and flexible as possible while satisfying
the requirement.  Those entities must be respected and dealt with
properly, but remember that they don't represent your interests.  The
second issue of "How do we deal with conflicts in our space?" is a
different matter, and the strategy that will work best varies on a
case-by-case basis nad requires human discretion.

Arclight

On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 1:52 PM, Moritz <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 01/14/2016 05:04 PM, Bill Shaw wrote:
>> Tampa Hackerspace reached out to our insurance agent to see about D&O
>> (directors and officers) insurance. We were informed that we need both
>> harassment and anti-discrimination policies in place before we apply.
>> They didn't have any boilerplate text for these policies.
>>
>> Has anyone else obtained this form of insurance and created suitable
>> policies?
>
> Did you try to hand in the hacker ethics? It contains both
> anti-harassment as well as anti-discrimination policies.
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
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Re: [hackerspaces] Harassment and anti-discrimation policies

\0xDynamite
In reply to this post by Shirley Hicks
> That may be the case, Xer0Dynamite - but there are real requirements to
> working successfully with that establishment.
>
> In the makerish approach - today’s current building codes were all written
> (over the past 100 years) because in each originating incident - someone
> died.

I understand Shirley, but all these things are issues of relating to
power, nothing more.  By putting something in writing, you're just
borrowing the power of the written word from the (mostly legal)
Establishment.  It's better to develop the power in yourself, because
the Establishment taxes you heavily to borrow it's power.  In any
event, this is not a week-long course you'll find on Udemy.

As for someone dying, no amount of borrowed legal biolerplate will
give you the power to avoid accidents -- you (again) have to possess
the power, the expertise, to avoid that.  People who want to jump on
the bandwagon will find it hard to get that, but nonetheless, there
aren't any shortcuts, and it's just what you have to have.

\m
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