[hackerspaces] Classes and costs

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[hackerspaces] Classes and costs

Chad Elish
Here’s a question for everyone,

What do you normally charge for your classes?
I know its a big cash cow for spaces to make up income.

We’re currently at $40.00 for a learn to solder class which you take home an arduino you soldered together. We recently noticed tech shop charging $99 for soldering a blinking badge together.

Cheers!
-Chad
President | HackPGH
Pittsburgh’s First Makerspace


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Re: [hackerspaces] Classes and costs

Joshua Pritt
At Melbourne Makerspace, FL all of our classes and events are free but we do explain the donation box and they can put in whatever amount they think it's worth for them.

We are about to start doing things like BBQ + Tech Expo and charging per plate, as well as Retro Game Nights, and other membership drives and marketing events.



On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 11:48 AM, Chad Elish <[hidden email]> wrote:
Here’s a question for everyone,

What do you normally charge for your classes?
I know its a big cash cow for spaces to make up income.

We’re currently at $40.00 for a learn to solder class which you take home an arduino you soldered together. We recently noticed tech shop charging $99 for soldering a blinking badge together.

Cheers!
-Chad
President | HackPGH
Pittsburgh’s First Makerspace


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Re: [hackerspaces] Classes and costs

Ben Hibben
At LVL1 we have a custom-designed Arduino kit we teach for $45 (it has our logo on it; want your logo on a version of this?  Contact me off list or visit mrblinkybling.com) which sounds in line with your class Chad.  We offer cheaper LED kits, too at $15 and $10 depending on size.

$99 for a blinking badge? Wow; well if they can fill seats I guess good for them?  Personally I like keeping the barrier to entry lower to avoid economic factors creating an even larger social disparity in who can afford the class.

Blenster


On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 11:53 AM, Joshua Pritt <[hidden email]> wrote:
At Melbourne Makerspace, FL all of our classes and events are free but we do explain the donation box and they can put in whatever amount they think it's worth for them.

We are about to start doing things like BBQ + Tech Expo and charging per plate, as well as Retro Game Nights, and other membership drives and marketing events.



On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 11:48 AM, Chad Elish <[hidden email]> wrote:
Here’s a question for everyone,

What do you normally charge for your classes?
I know its a big cash cow for spaces to make up income.

We’re currently at $40.00 for a learn to solder class which you take home an arduino you soldered together. We recently noticed tech shop charging $99 for soldering a blinking badge together.

Cheers!
-Chad
President | HackPGH
Pittsburgh’s First Makerspace


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Re: [hackerspaces] Classes and costs

Matt Joyce
NYCR lets teachers choose the rate and then takes 50%.  If 0 it's 50% of 0.  

Our laser classes are one time and required for laser use.  I think they were like 75 for non members... but NYC is also generally a higher income / higher cost of living state.  And the classes tend to be comprehensive multi hour affairs.



On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 12:10 PM, Ben Hibben <[hidden email]> wrote:
At LVL1 we have a custom-designed Arduino kit we teach for $45 (it has our logo on it; want your logo on a version of this?  Contact me off list or visit mrblinkybling.com) which sounds in line with your class Chad.  We offer cheaper LED kits, too at $15 and $10 depending on size.

$99 for a blinking badge? Wow; well if they can fill seats I guess good for them?  Personally I like keeping the barrier to entry lower to avoid economic factors creating an even larger social disparity in who can afford the class.

Blenster


On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 11:53 AM, Joshua Pritt <[hidden email]> wrote:
At Melbourne Makerspace, FL all of our classes and events are free but we do explain the donation box and they can put in whatever amount they think it's worth for them.

We are about to start doing things like BBQ + Tech Expo and charging per plate, as well as Retro Game Nights, and other membership drives and marketing events.



On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 11:48 AM, Chad Elish <[hidden email]> wrote:
Here’s a question for everyone,

What do you normally charge for your classes?
I know its a big cash cow for spaces to make up income.

We’re currently at $40.00 for a learn to solder class which you take home an arduino you soldered together. We recently noticed tech shop charging $99 for soldering a blinking badge together.

Cheers!
-Chad
President | HackPGH
Pittsburgh’s First Makerspace


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Re: [hackerspaces] Classes and costs

Bill Shaw-2
In reply to this post by Chad Elish
At Tampa Hackerspace, we generally charge $5 for members and $15 for non-members for skills classes. Any materials costs would be added to the class.

For safety and usage classes, members are free and we charge $30 for guests which includes a pass to come back by appointment and use the tools they learned. The woodshop and machining classes are not open to non-members. We felt there wasn't any accountability if a non-member wrecked a machine while visiting as a guest.

Members currently pay a one-time $60 machine shop fee for access to those classes. We did that to cover consumables and tooling. Where did this number come from? Admittedly, it's PFA (plucked from air). We decided after six months or so to review it and see if needs adjusting up or down.

Workshops, game nights, open makes, and such are free to everyone.

Bill Shaw
Tampa Hackerspace

On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 12:36 PM, <[hidden email]> wrote:
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Chad Elish <[hidden email]>
To: Hackerspaces General Discussion List <[hidden email]>
Cc: 
Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 11:48:42 -0400
Subject: [hackerspaces] Classes and costs
Here’s a question for everyone,

What do you normally charge for your classes?
I know its a big cash cow for spaces to make up income.

We’re currently at $40.00 for a learn to solder class which you take home an arduino you soldered together. We recently noticed tech shop charging $99 for soldering a blinking badge together.

Cheers!
-Chad
President | HackPGH
Pittsburgh’s First Makerspace


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Re: [hackerspaces] Classes and costs

webmind
In reply to this post by Chad Elish
On 20/07/16 17:48, Chad Elish wrote:
> Here’s a question for everyone,
>
> What do you normally charge for your classes?
> I know its a big cash cow for spaces to make up income.

Hmm, not here. I think most Dutch spaces mostly run on membership-income.

Both spaces in Amsterdam do not have a set price, LAG generally asks
donation Technologia Incognita mostly the same or people ask cost-price.
IJHack (a "space" without a space) has been doing workshops to generate
some income, I think they did twice the cost price to have a buffer of
components or be able to share kits.

> We’re currently at $40.00 for a learn to solder class which you take
> home an arduino you soldered together. We recently noticed tech shop
> charging $99 for soldering a blinking badge together.

Do a lot of spaces elsewhere use workshops/services as a way of
providing basic-income for the space? Do spaces have other models
outside of services or membership to generate base-income?

At LAG we're currently looking at alternative ways of generating income
for the rent/etc.

Thanks!

webmind


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Re: [hackerspaces] Classes and costs

Matt Joyce
one side benefit of charging for classes is allowing the class teachers to profit.  this can be particularly important for space members who need supplemental income to afford their dues or to get them by between contracts / gigs / what have you.


On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 6:24 AM, webmind <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 20/07/16 17:48, Chad Elish wrote:
> Here’s a question for everyone,
>
> What do you normally charge for your classes?
> I know its a big cash cow for spaces to make up income.

Hmm, not here. I think most Dutch spaces mostly run on membership-income.

Both spaces in Amsterdam do not have a set price, LAG generally asks
donation Technologia Incognita mostly the same or people ask cost-price.
IJHack (a "space" without a space) has been doing workshops to generate
some income, I think they did twice the cost price to have a buffer of
components or be able to share kits.

> We’re currently at $40.00 for a learn to solder class which you take
> home an arduino you soldered together. We recently noticed tech shop
> charging $99 for soldering a blinking badge together.

Do a lot of spaces elsewhere use workshops/services as a way of
providing basic-income for the space? Do spaces have other models
outside of services or membership to generate base-income?

At LAG we're currently looking at alternative ways of generating income
for the rent/etc.

Thanks!

webmind


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Re: [hackerspaces] Classes and costs

Pete Prodoehl

Because my space sometimes has gloom and doom people, someone brought up the idea that if you charge for a class, you could be held responsible if someone in the class gets injured. This would be different than if you did *not* charge for a class because there is no (or less?) expectation of responsibility if you are not charging for your services/expertise.

I think the thought is that a student would try to sue you personally versus the space, and there was a suggestion that individuals who teach should get their own personal insurance that would cover the teaching they do. (The space has its own insurance and waiver/disclaimer forms that everyone signs.)

I am definitely not a lawyer, but I'd love to hear what others think of that idea. (And yes, I am in the overly-litigious United States.)

Pete


On 7/21/16 10:42 AM, Silence Dogood wrote:
one side benefit of charging for classes is allowing the class teachers to profit.  this can be particularly important for space members who need supplemental income to afford their dues or to get them by between contracts / gigs / what have you.


On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 6:24 AM, webmind <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 20/07/16 17:48, Chad Elish wrote:
> Here’s a question for everyone,
>
> What do you normally charge for your classes?
> I know its a big cash cow for spaces to make up income.

Hmm, not here. I think most Dutch spaces mostly run on membership-income.

Both spaces in Amsterdam do not have a set price, LAG generally asks
donation Technologia Incognita mostly the same or people ask cost-price.
IJHack (a "space" without a space) has been doing workshops to generate
some income, I think they did twice the cost price to have a buffer of
components or be able to share kits.

> We’re currently at $40.00 for a learn to solder class which you take
> home an arduino you soldered together. We recently noticed tech shop
> charging $99 for soldering a blinking badge together.

Do a lot of spaces elsewhere use workshops/services as a way of
providing basic-income for the space? Do spaces have other models
outside of services or membership to generate base-income?

At LAG we're currently looking at alternative ways of generating income
for the rent/etc.

Thanks!

webmind



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Re: [hackerspaces] Classes and costs

Matt Joyce
I can't imagine this is really a huge issue for most classes.  Waivers help.  Binding arbitration for the lulz.  But I am pretty sure that if you are filing 1099s for your teachers there is a corporate veil in place, so they shouldn't be personally liable... of course such a situation would be a huge hassle and likely cost some cash for personal counsel, if something truly terrible did occur.

On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 12:00 PM, Pete Prodoehl <[hidden email]> wrote:

Because my space sometimes has gloom and doom people, someone brought up the idea that if you charge for a class, you could be held responsible if someone in the class gets injured. This would be different than if you did *not* charge for a class because there is no (or less?) expectation of responsibility if you are not charging for your services/expertise.

I think the thought is that a student would try to sue you personally versus the space, and there was a suggestion that individuals who teach should get their own personal insurance that would cover the teaching they do. (The space has its own insurance and waiver/disclaimer forms that everyone signs.)

I am definitely not a lawyer, but I'd love to hear what others think of that idea. (And yes, I am in the overly-litigious United States.)

Pete



On 7/21/16 10:42 AM, Silence Dogood wrote:
one side benefit of charging for classes is allowing the class teachers to profit.  this can be particularly important for space members who need supplemental income to afford their dues or to get them by between contracts / gigs / what have you.


On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 6:24 AM, webmind <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 20/07/16 17:48, Chad Elish wrote:
> Here’s a question for everyone,
>
> What do you normally charge for your classes?
> I know its a big cash cow for spaces to make up income.

Hmm, not here. I think most Dutch spaces mostly run on membership-income.

Both spaces in Amsterdam do not have a set price, LAG generally asks
donation Technologia Incognita mostly the same or people ask cost-price.
IJHack (a "space" without a space) has been doing workshops to generate
some income, I think they did twice the cost price to have a buffer of
components or be able to share kits.

> We’re currently at $40.00 for a learn to solder class which you take
> home an arduino you soldered together. We recently noticed tech shop
> charging $99 for soldering a blinking badge together.

Do a lot of spaces elsewhere use workshops/services as a way of
providing basic-income for the space? Do spaces have other models
outside of services or membership to generate base-income?

At LAG we're currently looking at alternative ways of generating income
for the rent/etc.

Thanks!

webmind



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[hidden email]
http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss



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Re: [hackerspaces] Classes and costs

Pete Prodoehl

There are no 1099s involved. We are a 501(c)3 with no employees, completely volunteer run. If you teach a class you can choose to charge for it, and then encouraged to donate to the space, but it is not required. (We use donations to cover equipment maintenance and consumables.)

Pete


On 7/21/16 11:40 AM, Silence Dogood wrote:
I can't imagine this is really a huge issue for most classes.  Waivers help.  Binding arbitration for the lulz.  But I am pretty sure that if you are filing 1099s for your teachers there is a corporate veil in place, so they shouldn't be personally liable... of course such a situation would be a huge hassle and likely cost some cash for personal counsel, if something truly terrible did occur.

On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 12:00 PM, Pete Prodoehl <[hidden email]> wrote:

Because my space sometimes has gloom and doom people, someone brought up the idea that if you charge for a class, you could be held responsible if someone in the class gets injured. This would be different than if you did *not* charge for a class because there is no (or less?) expectation of responsibility if you are not charging for your services/expertise.

I think the thought is that a student would try to sue you personally versus the space, and there was a suggestion that individuals who teach should get their own personal insurance that would cover the teaching they do. (The space has its own insurance and waiver/disclaimer forms that everyone signs.)

I am definitely not a lawyer, but I'd love to hear what others think of that idea. (And yes, I am in the overly-litigious United States.)

Pete



On 7/21/16 10:42 AM, Silence Dogood wrote:
one side benefit of charging for classes is allowing the class teachers to profit.  this can be particularly important for space members who need supplemental income to afford their dues or to get them by between contracts / gigs / what have you.


On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 6:24 AM, webmind <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 20/07/16 17:48, Chad Elish wrote:
> Here’s a question for everyone,
>
> What do you normally charge for your classes?
> I know its a big cash cow for spaces to make up income.

Hmm, not here. I think most Dutch spaces mostly run on membership-income.

Both spaces in Amsterdam do not have a set price, LAG generally asks
donation Technologia Incognita mostly the same or people ask cost-price.
IJHack (a "space" without a space) has been doing workshops to generate
some income, I think they did twice the cost price to have a buffer of
components or be able to share kits.

> We’re currently at $40.00 for a learn to solder class which you take
> home an arduino you soldered together. We recently noticed tech shop
> charging $99 for soldering a blinking badge together.

Do a lot of spaces elsewhere use workshops/services as a way of
providing basic-income for the space? Do spaces have other models
outside of services or membership to generate base-income?

At LAG we're currently looking at alternative ways of generating income
for the rent/etc.

Thanks!

webmind




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Discuss mailing list
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Re: [hackerspaces] Classes and costs

Matt Joyce
if you pay your teachers for their time above a certain amount you are required by law to file a 1099.  if your teachers are teaching for your organization and you intend to protect them with the corporate veil... this is how you do that.

class attendees pay your org for the class the org offers. 
the teacher gets paid by you.

if you are just a room for some teacher to use... you are offloading all the liability onto the teacher, while also assuming all the liability you already had.

at least that's my understanding of it.

-Matt

On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 1:07 PM, Pete Prodoehl <[hidden email]> wrote:

There are no 1099s involved. We are a 501(c)3 with no employees, completely volunteer run. If you teach a class you can choose to charge for it, and then encouraged to donate to the space, but it is not required. (We use donations to cover equipment maintenance and consumables.)

Pete



On 7/21/16 11:40 AM, Silence Dogood wrote:
I can't imagine this is really a huge issue for most classes.  Waivers help.  Binding arbitration for the lulz.  But I am pretty sure that if you are filing 1099s for your teachers there is a corporate veil in place, so they shouldn't be personally liable... of course such a situation would be a huge hassle and likely cost some cash for personal counsel, if something truly terrible did occur.

On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 12:00 PM, Pete Prodoehl <[hidden email]> wrote:

Because my space sometimes has gloom and doom people, someone brought up the idea that if you charge for a class, you could be held responsible if someone in the class gets injured. This would be different than if you did *not* charge for a class because there is no (or less?) expectation of responsibility if you are not charging for your services/expertise.

I think the thought is that a student would try to sue you personally versus the space, and there was a suggestion that individuals who teach should get their own personal insurance that would cover the teaching they do. (The space has its own insurance and waiver/disclaimer forms that everyone signs.)

I am definitely not a lawyer, but I'd love to hear what others think of that idea. (And yes, I am in the overly-litigious United States.)

Pete



On 7/21/16 10:42 AM, Silence Dogood wrote:
one side benefit of charging for classes is allowing the class teachers to profit.  this can be particularly important for space members who need supplemental income to afford their dues or to get them by between contracts / gigs / what have you.


On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 6:24 AM, webmind <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 20/07/16 17:48, Chad Elish wrote:
> Here’s a question for everyone,
>
> What do you normally charge for your classes?
> I know its a big cash cow for spaces to make up income.

Hmm, not here. I think most Dutch spaces mostly run on membership-income.

Both spaces in Amsterdam do not have a set price, LAG generally asks
donation Technologia Incognita mostly the same or people ask cost-price.
IJHack (a "space" without a space) has been doing workshops to generate
some income, I think they did twice the cost price to have a buffer of
components or be able to share kits.

> We’re currently at $40.00 for a learn to solder class which you take
> home an arduino you soldered together. We recently noticed tech shop
> charging $99 for soldering a blinking badge together.

Do a lot of spaces elsewhere use workshops/services as a way of
providing basic-income for the space? Do spaces have other models
outside of services or membership to generate base-income?

At LAG we're currently looking at alternative ways of generating income
for the rent/etc.

Thanks!

webmind




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http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss



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Re: [hackerspaces] Classes and costs

dosman
In reply to this post by Pete Prodoehl
100% pure bunk. If they are on your property (counts for rented property too) then you can be found liable. Now move on with life.

Anyone can sue your space at any time for anything, your only protection is due-dilagence. Have public liability insurance for your space. Have everyone stepping into your space sign an injury liability waiver. Liability waivers don’t stop anyone from sueing, but it certainly makes it harder for them them in the court room if they do sue. If you are using tools, give folks a heads up of common ways to avoid injury (the tip of the soldering iron is hot, no touchy. leaded solder is bad, keep your fingers out of your mouth, etc). If you are doing something dangerous, take standard precautions: use safety glasses/full face shield, gloves, aprons, and any other safety gear merited for the activity should the activity go wrong. 

If something does go bad, and someone wants to lawyer up, having done these things makes it way harder for someone to prove you were negligent in the court room. Unless you were actually being negligent. Doing all these things, then letting some rando's kids juggle chainsaws in your space is dumb. It takes vigilance to keep a place safe and still allow hackerspace anarchy to thrive. There’s no 100% way to ensure everything will be ok, but not doing something because of fear of being sued is no way to operate. Within reason of course.

-dosman



On Jul 21, 2016, at 12:00 PM, Pete Prodoehl <[hidden email]> wrote:


Because my space sometimes has gloom and doom people, someone brought up the idea that if you charge for a class, you could be held responsible if someone in the class gets injured. This would be different than if you did *not* charge for a class because there is no (or less?) expectation of responsibility if you are not charging for your services/expertise.

I think the thought is that a student would try to sue you personally versus the space, and there was a suggestion that individuals who teach should get their own personal insurance that would cover the teaching they do. (The space has its own insurance and waiver/disclaimer forms that everyone signs.)

I am definitely not a lawyer, but I'd love to hear what others think of that idea. (And yes, I am in the overly-litigious United States.)

Pete


On 7/21/16 10:42 AM, Silence Dogood wrote:
one side benefit of charging for classes is allowing the class teachers to profit.  this can be particularly important for space members who need supplemental income to afford their dues or to get them by between contracts / gigs / what have you.


On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 6:24 AM, webmind <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 20/07/16 17:48, Chad Elish wrote:
> Here’s a question for everyone,
>
> What do you normally charge for your classes?
> I know its a big cash cow for spaces to make up income.

Hmm, not here. I think most Dutch spaces mostly run on membership-income.

Both spaces in Amsterdam do not have a set price, LAG generally asks
donation Technologia Incognita mostly the same or people ask cost-price.
IJHack (a "space" without a space) has been doing workshops to generate
some income, I think they did twice the cost price to have a buffer of
components or be able to share kits.

> We’re currently at $40.00 for a learn to solder class which you take
> home an arduino you soldered together. We recently noticed tech shop
> charging $99 for soldering a blinking badge together.

Do a lot of spaces elsewhere use workshops/services as a way of
providing basic-income for the space? Do spaces have other models
outside of services or membership to generate base-income?

At LAG we're currently looking at alternative ways of generating income
for the rent/etc.

Thanks!

webmind


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Re: [hackerspaces] Classes and costs

Shirley Hicks
In reply to this post by Pete Prodoehl

On Jul 21, 2016, at 11:00 AM, Pete Prodoehl <[hidden email]> wrote:


Because my space sometimes has gloom and doom people, someone brought up the idea that if you charge for a class, you could be held responsible if someone in the class gets injured. This would be different than if you did *not* charge for a class because there is no (or less?) expectation of responsibility if you are not charging for your services/expertise.

I think the thought is that a student would try to sue you personally versus the space, and there was a suggestion that individuals who teach should get their own personal insurance that would cover the teaching they do. (The space has its own insurance and waiver/disclaimer forms that everyone signs.)

I am definitely not a lawyer, but I'd love to hear what others think of that idea. (And yes, I am in the overly-litigious United States.)

In the US: What we do is have all visitors and class students sign a liability waiver. And we have liability insurance, have appropriate safety measures in place (due diligence, follow OSHA and art studio safety guildelines and you’ll be pretty good) That is specifically what your policy is for. If you don’t know these, one or more of your working group should do the research work. It’s useful to know as your career goes along, and is applicable to other organizations. 

Know your environment, know and follow best practices for small workshops and studios, and you’ll be in good shape.

And yes, if bad crap happens, your insurance company will go up against the injured’s insurance company, and there may be duking out in court. SOP in the US.

Shirley Hicks
Red Mountain Makers
Birmingham, AL

Pete


On 7/21/16 10:42 AM, Silence Dogood wrote:
one side benefit of charging for classes is allowing the class teachers to profit.  this can be particularly important for space members who need supplemental income to afford their dues or to get them by between contracts / gigs / what have you.


On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 6:24 AM, webmind <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 20/07/16 17:48, Chad Elish wrote:
> Here’s a question for everyone,
>
> What do you normally charge for your classes?
> I know its a big cash cow for spaces to make up income.

Hmm, not here. I think most Dutch spaces mostly run on membership-income.

Both spaces in Amsterdam do not have a set price, LAG generally asks
donation Technologia Incognita mostly the same or people ask cost-price.
IJHack (a "space" without a space) has been doing workshops to generate
some income, I think they did twice the cost price to have a buffer of
components or be able to share kits.

> We’re currently at $40.00 for a learn to solder class which you take
> home an arduino you soldered together. We recently noticed tech shop
> charging $99 for soldering a blinking badge together.

Do a lot of spaces elsewhere use workshops/services as a way of
providing basic-income for the space? Do spaces have other models
outside of services or membership to generate base-income?

At LAG we're currently looking at alternative ways of generating income
for the rent/etc.

Thanks!

webmind


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Re: [hackerspaces] Classes and costs

Pete Prodoehl
In reply to this post by Matt Joyce

I think the approach is, any member can teach a class in whatever, and it is encouraged, but the space/organization itself has no involvement in running the classes, or taking any money, etc. It's basically providing the space/venue/equipment/etc. but no other sort of "official" support.

The teacher collects any payments from students and then can keep it all, use it for consumables, and/or donate it to the space.

So yes, I think the offloading of responsibility to the teacher is the approach that is happening.


Pete


On 7/21/16 12:23 PM, Silence Dogood wrote:
if you pay your teachers for their time above a certain amount you are required by law to file a 1099.  if your teachers are teaching for your organization and you intend to protect them with the corporate veil... this is how you do that.

class attendees pay your org for the class the org offers. 
the teacher gets paid by you.

if you are just a room for some teacher to use... you are offloading all the liability onto the teacher, while also assuming all the liability you already had.

at least that's my understanding of it.

-Matt

On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 1:07 PM, Pete Prodoehl <[hidden email]> wrote:

There are no 1099s involved. We are a 501(c)3 with no employees, completely volunteer run. If you teach a class you can choose to charge for it, and then encouraged to donate to the space, but it is not required. (We use donations to cover equipment maintenance and consumables.)

Pete



On 7/21/16 11:40 AM, Silence Dogood wrote:
I can't imagine this is really a huge issue for most classes.  Waivers help.  Binding arbitration for the lulz.  But I am pretty sure that if you are filing 1099s for your teachers there is a corporate veil in place, so they shouldn't be personally liable... of course such a situation would be a huge hassle and likely cost some cash for personal counsel, if something truly terrible did occur.

On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 12:00 PM, Pete Prodoehl <[hidden email]> wrote:

Because my space sometimes has gloom and doom people, someone brought up the idea that if you charge for a class, you could be held responsible if someone in the class gets injured. This would be different than if you did *not* charge for a class because there is no (or less?) expectation of responsibility if you are not charging for your services/expertise.

I think the thought is that a student would try to sue you personally versus the space, and there was a suggestion that individuals who teach should get their own personal insurance that would cover the teaching they do. (The space has its own insurance and waiver/disclaimer forms that everyone signs.)

I am definitely not a lawyer, but I'd love to hear what others think of that idea. (And yes, I am in the overly-litigious United States.)

Pete



On 7/21/16 10:42 AM, Silence Dogood wrote:
one side benefit of charging for classes is allowing the class teachers to profit.  this can be particularly important for space members who need supplemental income to afford their dues or to get them by between contracts / gigs / what have you.


On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 6:24 AM, webmind <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 20/07/16 17:48, Chad Elish wrote:
> Here’s a question for everyone,
>
> What do you normally charge for your classes?
> I know its a big cash cow for spaces to make up income.

Hmm, not here. I think most Dutch spaces mostly run on membership-income.

Both spaces in Amsterdam do not have a set price, LAG generally asks
donation Technologia Incognita mostly the same or people ask cost-price.
IJHack (a "space" without a space) has been doing workshops to generate
some income, I think they did twice the cost price to have a buffer of
components or be able to share kits.

> We’re currently at $40.00 for a learn to solder class which you take
> home an arduino you soldered together. We recently noticed tech shop
> charging $99 for soldering a blinking badge together.

Do a lot of spaces elsewhere use workshops/services as a way of
providing basic-income for the space? Do spaces have other models
outside of services or membership to generate base-income?

At LAG we're currently looking at alternative ways of generating income
for the rent/etc.

Thanks!

webmind





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Re: [hackerspaces] Classes and costs

Ron Bean-2
>So yes, I think the offloading of responsibility to the teacher is the
>approach that is happening.

Just to clarify-- what we've been told is that the 'space is liable
regardless, but the space's insurance doesn't cover the instructor if
the instructor is making money on it (this is according to our
insurance agent-- YMMV). The caution here is for the instructor, not the
'space. The instructor needs their own separate insurance coverage if
they're keeping part of the class fee.

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Re: [hackerspaces] Classes and costs

webmind
In reply to this post by Shirley Hicks
Hi,

I quite like having the US people on here, but is there also a
US-hackerspace list? Seems like a lot of the legal stuff is very
US-specific?

Cheers,

w.



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Re: [hackerspaces] Classes and costs

Dave Rowntree
We just started our first proper instructor lead course just last month, at So Make It - laser cutter training (run by myself and a couple of others at the moment)
We charge £20 gbp (wow is that really only $26 now - what the hell happened? Stupid Brexit nonsense) for about a 2 hour session of me waffling on about safety, waving my hands around, and setting stuff on fire. Then we let them loose on the machine.

The idea was that the training dues and laser time fee (20p gbp per minute of laser time) would pay for the inevitable consumable parts and materials costs.
Now you're talking about liability of trainers - and I'm nervous about how UK law would hold me liable (despite not taking any of the money) 

I need to check. IANAL etc.

That said, I'm not sure even we can even ask people to sign liability disclaimers like you guys in the US. I'd like to implement it if we could. I doubt a UK judge would like it so much.

In the past we have charged just components cost for small soldering workshops (something like £6 gbp for a small custom PCB and components to make an Arduino Nano clone)

Dave.

On 21 July 2016 at 22:21, webmind <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

I quite like having the US people on here, but is there also a
US-hackerspace list? Seems like a lot of the legal stuff is very
US-specific?

Cheers,

w.



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--
Dave Rowntree,
Director of Sobuildit Limited
Trustee of Southampton Makerspace
@rowntree_dave


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Re: [hackerspaces] Classes and costs

Christie Dudley-2
In reply to this post by Pete Prodoehl
There is a specific legal standard for the difference in charging vs. not charging... if you own or rent the space only (NYC Resistors model MAY not apply because instructors charge, although there could be construed liability there):

If you do not charge, the people who attend classes are a licensee (oddly enough) and you are liable if you do not warn or make safe. If they are paying to be there they are an invitee (the law never really makes complete sense) and you have a responsibility to *inspect for hidden hazards*, warn or make safe to avoid liability. Honestly, a sign on the wall saying "everything in here could hurt you, use at your own risk" or similar (dress it up a bit to make it cute/funny/boastful!) should be enough to avoid liability. (But don't leave anything out!) As an aside, that's why you see "caution wet floor" signs in supermarkets a lot.

Christie

Because my space sometimes has gloom and doom people, someone brought up the idea that if you charge for a class, you could be held responsible if someone in the class gets injured. This would be different than if you did *not* charge for a class because there is no (or less?) expectation of responsibility if you are not charging for your services/expertise.

I think the thought is that a student would try to sue you personally versus the space, and there was a suggestion that individuals who teach should get their own personal insurance that would cover the teaching they do. (The space has its own insurance and waiver/disclaimer forms that everyone signs.)

I am definitely not a lawyer, but I'd love to hear what others think of that idea. (And yes, I am in the overly-litigious United States.)

Pete


On 7/21/16 10:42 AM, Silence Dogood wrote:
one side benefit of charging for classes is allowing the class teachers to profit.  this can be particularly important for space members who need supplemental income to afford their dues or to get them by between contracts / gigs / what have you.


On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 6:24 AM, webmind <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 20/07/16 17:48, Chad Elish wrote:
> Here’s a question for everyone,
>
> What do you normally charge for your classes?
> I know its a big cash cow for spaces to make up income.

Hmm, not here. I think most Dutch spaces mostly run on membership-income.

Both spaces in Amsterdam do not have a set price, LAG generally asks
donation Technologia Incognita mostly the same or people ask cost-price.
IJHack (a "space" without a space) has been doing workshops to generate
some income, I think they did twice the cost price to have a buffer of
components or be able to share kits.

> We’re currently at $40.00 for a learn to solder class which you take
> home an arduino you soldered together. We recently noticed tech shop
> charging $99 for soldering a blinking badge together.

Do a lot of spaces elsewhere use workshops/services as a way of
providing basic-income for the space? Do spaces have other models
outside of services or membership to generate base-income?

At LAG we're currently looking at alternative ways of generating income
for the rent/etc.

Thanks!

webmind




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Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
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Re: [hackerspaces] Classes and costs

Christie Dudley-2
In reply to this post by Pete Prodoehl

Corporate veil may not protect directors and officers if they are considered to be negligent in performing their responsibilities, which is why they are almost always named on lawsuits when someone is injured if it's a small org. That's why Noisebridge (and almost any other org) gets D&O insurance to cover that.

Christie


On 7/21/2016 12:12 PM, Pete Prodoehl wrote:

I think the approach is, any member can teach a class in whatever, and it is encouraged, but the space/organization itself has no involvement in running the classes, or taking any money, etc. It's basically providing the space/venue/equipment/etc. but no other sort of "official" support.

The teacher collects any payments from students and then can keep it all, use it for consumables, and/or donate it to the space.

So yes, I think the offloading of responsibility to the teacher is the approach that is happening.


Pete


On 7/21/16 12:23 PM, Silence Dogood wrote:
if you pay your teachers for their time above a certain amount you are required by law to file a 1099.  if your teachers are teaching for your organization and you intend to protect them with the corporate veil... this is how you do that.

class attendees pay your org for the class the org offers. 
the teacher gets paid by you.

if you are just a room for some teacher to use... you are offloading all the liability onto the teacher, while also assuming all the liability you already had.

at least that's my understanding of it.

-Matt

On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 1:07 PM, Pete Prodoehl <[hidden email]> wrote:

There are no 1099s involved. We are a 501(c)3 with no employees, completely volunteer run. If you teach a class you can choose to charge for it, and then encouraged to donate to the space, but it is not required. (We use donations to cover equipment maintenance and consumables.)

Pete



On 7/21/16 11:40 AM, Silence Dogood wrote:
I can't imagine this is really a huge issue for most classes.  Waivers help.  Binding arbitration for the lulz.  But I am pretty sure that if you are filing 1099s for your teachers there is a corporate veil in place, so they shouldn't be personally liable... of course such a situation would be a huge hassle and likely cost some cash for personal counsel, if something truly terrible did occur.

On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 12:00 PM, Pete Prodoehl <[hidden email]> wrote:

Because my space sometimes has gloom and doom people, someone brought up the idea that if you charge for a class, you could be held responsible if someone in the class gets injured. This would be different than if you did *not* charge for a class because there is no (or less?) expectation of responsibility if you are not charging for your services/expertise.

I think the thought is that a student would try to sue you personally versus the space, and there was a suggestion that individuals who teach should get their own personal insurance that would cover the teaching they do. (The space has its own insurance and waiver/disclaimer forms that everyone signs.)

I am definitely not a lawyer, but I'd love to hear what others think of that idea. (And yes, I am in the overly-litigious United States.)

Pete



On 7/21/16 10:42 AM, Silence Dogood wrote:
one side benefit of charging for classes is allowing the class teachers to profit.  this can be particularly important for space members who need supplemental income to afford their dues or to get them by between contracts / gigs / what have you.


On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 6:24 AM, webmind <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 20/07/16 17:48, Chad Elish wrote:
> Here’s a question for everyone,
>
> What do you normally charge for your classes?
> I know its a big cash cow for spaces to make up income.

Hmm, not here. I think most Dutch spaces mostly run on membership-income.

Both spaces in Amsterdam do not have a set price, LAG generally asks
donation Technologia Incognita mostly the same or people ask cost-price.
IJHack (a "space" without a space) has been doing workshops to generate
some income, I think they did twice the cost price to have a buffer of
components or be able to share kits.

> We’re currently at $40.00 for a learn to solder class which you take
> home an arduino you soldered together. We recently noticed tech shop
> charging $99 for soldering a blinking badge together.

Do a lot of spaces elsewhere use workshops/services as a way of
providing basic-income for the space? Do spaces have other models
outside of services or membership to generate base-income?

At LAG we're currently looking at alternative ways of generating income
for the rent/etc.

Thanks!

webmind






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Re: [hackerspaces] Classes and costs

Christie Dudley-2
In reply to this post by dosman

Well, only about 75% bunk. :P

Whether the instructor is liable is up for debate, probably in court. It would be a bad lawyer that didn't name the instructor AND the space, AND the officers and directors.

The problem with a waiver is that it's very difficult to enforce in a fairly open environment. Furthermore it it's more of a "belt and suspenders" solution. (A lot of lawyers advocate for that and they're just being lawyers... i.e. paranoid.) A sign on the wall has the same effect and requires no enforcement - no collection and storage of forms, no mapping signatures to people, etc. Then the only record-keeping is when the sign went up. I would also assume that an instructor teaching how to soldier would cover safety before the class started.

Ahh, I miss Ace Junkyard. (look it up. :P)

Christie


On 7/21/2016 10:25 AM, dosman wrote:
100% pure bunk. If they are on your property (counts for rented property too) then you can be found liable. Now move on with life.

Anyone can sue your space at any time for anything, your only protection is due-dilagence. Have public liability insurance for your space. Have everyone stepping into your space sign an injury liability waiver. Liability waivers don’t stop anyone from sueing, but it certainly makes it harder for them them in the court room if they do sue. If you are using tools, give folks a heads up of common ways to avoid injury (the tip of the soldering iron is hot, no touchy. leaded solder is bad, keep your fingers out of your mouth, etc). If you are doing something dangerous, take standard precautions: use safety glasses/full face shield, gloves, aprons, and any other safety gear merited for the activity should the activity go wrong. 

If something does go bad, and someone wants to lawyer up, having done these things makes it way harder for someone to prove you were negligent in the court room. Unless you were actually being negligent. Doing all these things, then letting some rando's kids juggle chainsaws in your space is dumb. It takes vigilance to keep a place safe and still allow hackerspace anarchy to thrive. There’s no 100% way to ensure everything will be ok, but not doing something because of fear of being sued is no way to operate. Within reason of course.

-dosman



On Jul 21, 2016, at 12:00 PM, Pete Prodoehl <[hidden email]> wrote:


Because my space sometimes has gloom and doom people, someone brought up the idea that if you charge for a class, you could be held responsible if someone in the class gets injured. This would be different than if you did *not* charge for a class because there is no (or less?) expectation of responsibility if you are not charging for your services/expertise.

I think the thought is that a student would try to sue you personally versus the space, and there was a suggestion that individuals who teach should get their own personal insurance that would cover the teaching they do. (The space has its own insurance and waiver/disclaimer forms that everyone signs.)

I am definitely not a lawyer, but I'd love to hear what others think of that idea. (And yes, I am in the overly-litigious United States.)

Pete


On 7/21/16 10:42 AM, Silence Dogood wrote:
one side benefit of charging for classes is allowing the class teachers to profit.  this can be particularly important for space members who need supplemental income to afford their dues or to get them by between contracts / gigs / what have you.


On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 6:24 AM, webmind <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 20/07/16 17:48, Chad Elish wrote:
> Here’s a question for everyone,
>
> What do you normally charge for your classes?
> I know its a big cash cow for spaces to make up income.

Hmm, not here. I think most Dutch spaces mostly run on membership-income.

Both spaces in Amsterdam do not have a set price, LAG generally asks
donation Technologia Incognita mostly the same or people ask cost-price.
IJHack (a "space" without a space) has been doing workshops to generate
some income, I think they did twice the cost price to have a buffer of
components or be able to share kits.

> We’re currently at $40.00 for a learn to solder class which you take
> home an arduino you soldered together. We recently noticed tech shop
> charging $99 for soldering a blinking badge together.

Do a lot of spaces elsewhere use workshops/services as a way of
providing basic-income for the space? Do spaces have other models
outside of services or membership to generate base-income?

At LAG we're currently looking at alternative ways of generating income
for the rent/etc.

Thanks!

webmind


_______________________________________________
Discuss mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss



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