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[hackerspaces] An interesting point of view : "On Feminism and Microcontrollers"

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[hackerspaces] An interesting point of view : "On Feminism and Microcontrollers"

Alexandre Dulaunoy-2
For sharing with you,

Leah Buechley and Benjamin Mako Hill made an interesting
comparative paper[1] about LilyPad and Arduino.

To complement their view, Benjamin Mako Hill wrote a blog
entry[2] about it and some additional thoughts to extend
or redesign the "clubhouse".

Maybe useful when designing/improving hackerspace.

adulau

[1] http://hlt.media.mit.edu/publications/buechley_DIS_10.pdf
[2] http://mako.cc/copyrighteous/20101001-00


--
--                   Alexandre Dulaunoy (adulau) -- http://www.foo.be/
--                             http://www.foo.be/cgi-bin/wiki.pl/Diary
--         "Knowledge can create problems, it is not through ignorance
--                                that we can solve them" Isaac Asimov
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Re: [hackerspaces] An interesting point of view : "On Feminism and Microcontrollers"

Michel Bauwens
Some background on protocollar power and intentional design, taken from various sources:

On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 11:04 AM, Alexandre Dulaunoy <[hidden email]> wrote:
For sharing with you,

Leah Buechley and Benjamin Mako Hill made an interesting
comparative paper[1] about LilyPad and Arduino.

  [1] http://hlt.media.mit.edu/publications/buechley_DIS_10.pdf
 

Design is power: A review of issues around the concept of protocollary power

Michel Bauwens
3rd October 2010


Protocally Power is a concept developed by Alexander Galloway in his book Protocol, to denote the new way power and control are exercised in distributed networks.

(See also, in the P2P Foundation wiki, our entries on the Architecture of Control and on Computing Regimes.)

Here is the description of the concept from Alexander Galloway in his book Protocol:

“Protocol is not a new word. Prior to its usage in computing, protocol referred to any type of correct or proper behavior within a specific system of conventions. It is an important concept in the area of social etiquette as well as in the fields of diplomacy and international relations. Etymologically it refers to a fly-leaf glued to the beginning of a document, but in familiar usage the word came to mean any introductory paper summarizing the key points of a diplomatic agreement or treaty.

However, with the advent of digital computing, the term has taken on a slightly different meaning. Now, protocols refer specifically to standards governing the implementation of specific technologies. Like their diplomatic predecessors, computer protocols establish the essential points necessary to enact an agreed-upon standard of action. Like their diplomatic predecessors, computer protocols are vetted out between negotiating parties and then materialized in the real world by large populations of participants (in one case citizens, and in the other computer users). Yet instead of governing social or political practices as did their diplomatic predecessors, computer protocols govern how specific technologies are agreed to, adopted, implemented, and ultimately used by people around the world. What was once a question of consideration and sense is now a question of logic and physics.

To help understand the concept of computer protocols, consider the analogy of the highway system. Many different combinations of roads are available to a person driving from point A to point B. However, en route one is compelled to stop at red lights, stay between the white lines, follow a reasonably direct path, and so on. These conventional rules that govern the set of possible behavior patterns within a heterogeneous system are what computer scientists call protocol. Thus, protocol is a technique for achieving voluntary regulation within a contingent environment.

These regulations always operate at the level of coding–they encode packets of information so they may be transported; they code documents so they may be effectively parsed; they code communication so local devices may effectively communicate with foreign devices. Protocols are highly formal; that is, they encapsulate information inside a technically defined wrapper, while remaining relatively indifferent to the content of information contained within. Viewed as a whole, protocol is a distributed management system that allows control to exist within a heterogeneous material milieu.

It is common for contemporary critics to describe the Internet as an unpredictable mass of data–rhizomatic and lacking central organization. This position states that since new communication technologies are based on the elimination of centralized command and hierarchical control, it follows that the world is witnessing a general disappearance of control as such.

This could not be further from the truth. I argue in this book that protocol is how technological control exists after decentralization. The “after” in my title refers to both the historical moment after decentralization has come into existence, but also–and more important–the historical phase after decentralization, that is, after it is dead and gone, replaced as the supreme social management style by the diagram of distribution.”

The following citations confirm the role of Design, and the intention behind it, as a function of Protocollary Power:

Mitch Ratfliffe:

“Yes, networks are grown. But the medium they grow in, in this case the software that supports them, is not grown but designed & architected. The social network ecosystem of the blogosphere was grown, but the blog software that enabled it was designed. Wikis are a socially grown structure on top of software that was designed. It’s fortuitous that the social network structures that grew on those software substrates turn out to have interesting & useful properties.

With a greater understanding of which software structures lead to which social network topologies & what the implications are for the robustness, innovativeness, error correctiveness, fairness, etc. of those various topologies, software can be designed that will intentionally & inevitably lead to the growth of political social networks that are more robust, innovative, fair & error correcting.”

Mitch Kapor on ‘Politics is Architecture‘

“Politics is architecture”: The architecture (structure and design) of political processes, not their content, is determinative of what can be accomplished. Just as you can’t build a skyscraper out of bamboo, you can’t have a participatory democracy if power is centralized, processes are opaque, and accountability is limited.”

Fred Stutzman on Pseudo-Govermental Decisions in Social Software

“When one designs social software, they are forced to make pseudo-governmental decisions about how the contained ecosystem will behave. Examples of these decisions include limits on friending behavior, limits on how information in a profile can be displayed, and how access to information is restricted in the ecosystem. These rules create and inform the structural aspects of the ecosystem, causing participants in the ecosystem to behave a specific way.

As we use social software more, and social software more neatly integrates with our lives, a greater portion of our social rules will come to be enforced by the will of software designers. Of course, this isn’t new – when we elected to use email, we agree to buy into the social consequences of email. Perhaps because we are so used to making tradeoffs when we adopt social technology, we don’t notice them anymore. However, as social technology adopts a greater role in mediating our social experience, it will become very important to take a critical perspective in analyzing how the will of designers change us.”

Here’s an example of the implementation of social Values in Technical Code:

“In a paper about the hacker community, Hannemyr compares and contrasts software produced in both open source and commercial realms in an effort to deconstruct and problematize design decisions and goals. His analysis provides us with further evidence regarding the links between social values and software code. He concludes:

“Software constructed by hackers seem to favor such properties as flexibility, tailorability, modularity and openendedness to facilitate on-going experimentation. Software originating in the mainstream is characterized by the promise of control, completeness and immutability” (Hannemyr, 1999).

To bolster his argument, Hannemyr outlines the striking differences between document mark-up languages (like HTML and Adobe PDF), as well as various word processing applications (such as TeX and Emacs verses Microsoft Word) that have originated in open and closed development environments. He concludes that “the difference between the hacker’s approach and those of the industrial programmer is one of outlook: between an agoric, integrated and holistic attitude towards the creation of artifacts and a proprietary, fragmented and reductionist one” (Hannemyr, 1999). As Hannemyr’s analysis reveals, the characteristics of a given piece of software frequently reflect the attitude and outlook of the programmers and organizations from which it emerges”

Armin Medosch shows how corporate-owned Social Media platforms are Re-introducing centralization through the back door:

“In media theory much has been made of the one-sided and centralised broadcast structure of television and radio. the topology of the broadcast system, centralised, one-to-many, one-way, has been compared unfavourable to the net, which is a many-to-many structure, but also one-to-many and many-to-one, it is, in terms of a topology, a highly distributed or mesh network. So the net has been hailed as finally making good on the promise of participatory media usage. What so called social media do is to re-introduce a centralised structure through the backdoor. While the communication of the users is ‘participatory’ and many-to-many, and so on and so forth, this is organised via a centralised platform, venture capital funded, corporately owned. Thus, while social media bear the promise of making good on the emancipatory power of networked communication, in fact they re-introduce the producer-consumer divide on another layer, that of host/user. they perform a false aufhebung of the broadcast paradigm. Therefore I think the term prosumer is misleading and not very useful. while the users do produce something, there is nothing ‘pro’ as in professional in it.

This leads to a second point. The conflict between labour and capital has played itself out via mechanization and rationalization, scientific management and its refinement, such as the scientific management of office work, the proletarisation of wrongly called ‘white collar work’, the replacement of human labour by machines in both the factory and the office, etc. What this entailed was an extraction of knowledge from the skilled artisan, the craftsman, the high level clerk, the analyst, etc., and its formalisation into an automated process, whereby this abstraction decidedly shifts the balance of power towards management. Now what happened with the transition from Web 1.0 to 2.0 is a very similar process. Remember the static homepage in html? You needed to be able to code a bit, actually for many non-geeks it was probably the first satisfactory coding experience ever. You needed to set the links yourself and check the backlinks. Now a lot of that is being done by automated systems. The linking knowledge of freely acting networked subjects has been turned into a system that suggests who you link with and that established many relationships involuntarily. It is usually more work getting rid of this than to have it done for you. Therefore Web 2.0 in many ways is actually a dumbing down of people, a deskilling similar to what has happened in industry over the past 200 years.

Wanted to stay short and precise, but need to add, social media is a misnomer. What social media would be are systems that are collectively owned and maintained by their users, that are built and developed according to their needs and not according to the needs of advertisers and sinister powers who are syphoning off the knowledge generated about social relationships in secret data mining and social network analysis processes.

So there is a solution, one which I continue to advocate: lets get back to creating our own systems, lets use free and open source software for server infrastructures and lets socialise via a decentralised landscape of smaller and bigger hubs that are independently organised, rather than feeding the machine …” (IDC mailing list, Oct 31, 2009)

Harry Halpin insists that Protocols are Designed by People:

“Galloway is correct to point out that there is control in the internet, but instead of reifying the protocol or even network form itself, an ontological mistake that would be like blaming capitalism on the factory, it would be more suitable to realise that protocols embody social relationships. Just as genuine humans control factories, genuine humans – with names and addresses – create protocols. These humans can and do embody social relations that in turn can be considered abstractions, including those determined by the abstraction that is capital. But studying protocol as if it were first and foremost an abstraction without studying the historic and dialectic movement of the social forms which give rise to the protocols neglects Marx’s insight that

Technologies are organs of the human brain, created bythe human hand; the power of knowledge, objectified.

Bearing protocols’ human origination in mind, there is no reason why they must be reified into a form of abstract control when they can also be considered the solution to a set of problems faced by individuals within particular historical circumstances. If they now operate as abstract forms of control, there is no reason why protocols could not also be abstract forms of collectivity. Instead of hoping for an exodus from protocols by virtue of art, perhaps one could inspect the motivations, finances, and structure of the human agents that create them in order to gain a more strategic vantage point. Some of these are hackers, while others are government bureaucrats or representatives of corporations – although it would seem that hackers usually create the protocols that actually work and gain widespread success. To the extent that those protocols are accepted, this class that I dub the ‘immaterial aristocracy’ governs the net. It behoves us to inspect the concept of digital sovereignty in order to discover which precise body or bodies have control over it.”
 



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Re: [hackerspaces] An interesting point of view : "On Feminism and Microcontrollers"

Yves Quemener
In reply to this post by Alexandre Dulaunoy-2
On 10/02/2010 11:04 AM, Alexandre Dulaunoy wrote:

> For sharing with you,
>
> Leah Buechley and Benjamin Mako Hill made an interesting
> comparative paper[1] about LilyPad and Arduino.
>
> To complement their view, Benjamin Mako Hill wrote a blog
> entry[2] about it and some additional thoughts to extend
> or redesign the "clubhouse".
>
> Maybe useful when designing/improving hackerspace.
>
> adulau
>
> [1] http://hlt.media.mit.edu/publications/buechley_DIS_10.pdf
> [2] http://mako.cc/copyrighteous/20101001-00
>
>

Honestly, I am tired of this sexist crap...

"Even if computing and electrical engineering communities were perfectly
welcoming (which they are not) most people (both male and female, but
disproportionately female) will choose not to participate."

In all hackerspaces I have seen, girls are more than welcomed. I would like
that people stop stating the contrary as a fact. They just don't come in
the same number as men, for some reasons, but the lack of welcoming is
certainly not one of them.

"Building new clubhouses requires creativity of its proponents and risks
charges of reinforcing stereotypes and existing status hierarchies. But,
executed carefully and well (as I believe LilyPad has been), it suggests
ways to reach the majority of people that no "unlocking" project will ever
seem relevant to."

Here is my point of view on this : hackerspaces tend to reject stereotypes
and existing status hierarchy. If you are doing cool stuff, people do not
really care wether you are male or female, white or black, young or old,
rich or poor, academically educated or self-taught. In fact, most of your
audience will know you only by a pseudonym and won't care much about the
rest. Now, the people who come in and say "you should attract more girls by
doing sewing", are the people who are trying to bring in some old
stereotypes in places that lack them. I don't know, am I the only one
shocked at the idea that hardware hacks, robotics and software security are
supposed to be "men's stuff" while sewing blinking leds in clothes are
supposed to be "girlie stuff" ?

Sure, there are less girls in hackerspace because it is perceived as a
boy's hobby. I personally think that this is wrong and that just shows a
prejudice existing in the society as a whole. To change that, what we need
is more female security experts, more female hardware hackers, more female
robot makers but we don't need to make a new segregation between men's
hacks and women's hacks, that would be just admitting defeat.

Iv
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Re: [hackerspaces] An interesting point of view : "On Feminism and Microcontrollers"

Maria Droujkova

 Lack of welcome takes different forms. For example, some books are read by different genders disproportionally, because of words in them.


On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 6:27 AM, Yves Quemener <[hidden email]> wrote:

>

Honestly, I am tired of this sexist crap...

Some types of conversations may feel repelling to either gender, because men and women talk differently. You can see it at mixed parties, when they separate. There are general conversation styles, and then there are separate ones, "girl talk" and "boy talk."

I used to hang out with physics and math Olympiad crowds and then math students, mostly male, when I was young. There were a lot of subtle examples of differences of this sort - discourse, body language, spatial behavior, intellectual behavior, humor and so on.

Now I organize math groups for kids and for grown-ups. My kid groups are homeschoolers, who can choose what classes to take, so you can see some of those free choice behaviors. I can design a class that will predominantly attract either gender, or a class that attracts both. I can also design a class that either gender will perceive as unwelcoming. And this will have very little to do with actual math content. For example, requiring writing or text chat of 8-12 year olds, especially if you pay any attention to style and grammar, will powerfully and disproportionately repel boys. Timed competitive problem solving will disproportionally repel girls.

There are a lot of observations about these effects in free choice situations, hacker spaces included. An example that has a lot of data is World of Warcraft, where designers went out of their ways to welcome both genders. This works for older people: there are about the same number of men and women playing, once the player age is past 30 or so. However, female youths between 15 and 20 are a tiny minority compared to males that age. The ratio gradually changes toward 30. There are systemic social factors in-game that cause this to happen, and these factors are quite complex.


Sure, there are less girls in hackerspace because it is perceived as a
boy's hobby. I personally think that this is wrong and that just shows a
prejudice existing in the society as a whole. To change that, what we need
is more female security experts, more female hardware hackers, more female
robot makers but we don't need to make a new segregation between men's
hacks and women's hacks, that would be just admitting defeat.

I fully agree with the first part of it. If women take key positions a community, they change the atmosphere. Hackerspaces that have female organizers, like our new Durham, NC space, don't seem to have segregation issues. It may take some segregation for this to happen, initially, if an established hackerspace is already segregated. For example, to invite women, you may need to invite several of them at once to form a micro-community of support within the space. This way, they will feel comfortable even before the atmosphere changes enough and this segregated support is not needed anymore.

Cheers,
Maria Droujkova

Make math your own, to make your own math.
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Re: [hackerspaces] An interesting point of view : "On Feminism and Microcontrollers"

Sylva1n
Are there clear female-barrier-to-entry identified for hackerspaces,
or female no-noes that hackerspaces-in-the-making should be aware of?
Because in Grenoble (France), despite the openness of our
hackerspace-creation process, we have no female-hacker interest. None.
Zilch.
I've recently visited the Toulouse hackerspace, and despite the sole
female hacker being treated exactly like any other member (no sexist
jokes, nor special privileges), the gender imbalance is staggering!

On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 2:35 PM, Maria Droujkova <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>  Lack of welcome takes different forms. For example, some books are read by
> different genders disproportionally, because of words in them.
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 6:27 AM, Yves Quemener <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> >
>>
>> Honestly, I am tired of this sexist crap...
>
> Some types of conversations may feel repelling to either gender, because men
> and women talk differently. You can see it at mixed parties, when they
> separate. There are general conversation styles, and then there are separate
> ones, "girl talk" and "boy talk."
>
> I used to hang out with physics and math Olympiad crowds and then math
> students, mostly male, when I was young. There were a lot of subtle examples
> of differences of this sort - discourse, body language, spatial behavior,
> intellectual behavior, humor and so on.
>
> Now I organize math groups for kids and for grown-ups. My kid groups are
> homeschoolers, who can choose what classes to take, so you can see some of
> those free choice behaviors. I can design a class that will predominantly
> attract either gender, or a class that attracts both. I can also design a
> class that either gender will perceive as unwelcoming. And this will have
> very little to do with actual math content. For example, requiring writing
> or text chat of 8-12 year olds, especially if you pay any attention to style
> and grammar, will powerfully and disproportionately repel boys. Timed
> competitive problem solving will disproportionally repel girls.
>
> There are a lot of observations about these effects in free choice
> situations, hacker spaces included. An example that has a lot of data is
> World of Warcraft, where designers went out of their ways to welcome both
> genders. This works for older people: there are about the same number of men
> and women playing, once the player age is past 30 or so. However, female
> youths between 15 and 20 are a tiny minority compared to males that age. The
> ratio gradually changes toward 30. There are systemic social factors in-game
> that cause this to happen, and these factors are quite complex.
>
>>
>> Sure, there are less girls in hackerspace because it is perceived as a
>> boy's hobby. I personally think that this is wrong and that just shows a
>> prejudice existing in the society as a whole. To change that, what we need
>> is more female security experts, more female hardware hackers, more female
>> robot makers but we don't need to make a new segregation between men's
>> hacks and women's hacks, that would be just admitting defeat.
>
> I fully agree with the first part of it. If women take key positions a
> community, they change the atmosphere. Hackerspaces that have female
> organizers, like our new Durham, NC space, don't seem to have segregation
> issues. It may take some segregation for this to happen, initially, if an
> established hackerspace is already segregated. For example, to invite women,
> you may need to invite several of them at once to form a micro-community of
> support within the space. This way, they will feel comfortable even before
> the atmosphere changes enough and this segregated support is not needed
> anymore.
>
> Cheers,
> Maria Droujkova
>
> Make math your own, to make your own math.
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>
>

--
Sylvain
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Re: [hackerspaces] An interesting point of view : "On Feminism and Microcontrollers"

Chris Weiss
In St. Louis we have only a few female members, but when they visit on
their own accord, they tend to stick around at a much higher rate than
male vistors.

it doens't sound like you guys are doing anything wrong, you just
haven't had the right women come across your space.

On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 2:30 PM, Sylva1n <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Are there clear female-barrier-to-entry identified for hackerspaces,
> or female no-noes that hackerspaces-in-the-making should be aware of?
> Because in Grenoble (France), despite the openness of our
> hackerspace-creation process, we have no female-hacker interest. None.
> Zilch.
> I've recently visited the Toulouse hackerspace, and despite the sole
> female hacker being treated exactly like any other member (no sexist
> jokes, nor special privileges), the gender imbalance is staggering!
>
> On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 2:35 PM, Maria Droujkova <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>  Lack of welcome takes different forms. For example, some books are read by
>> different genders disproportionally, because of words in them.
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 6:27 AM, Yves Quemener <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> Honestly, I am tired of this sexist crap...
>>
>> Some types of conversations may feel repelling to either gender, because men
>> and women talk differently. You can see it at mixed parties, when they
>> separate. There are general conversation styles, and then there are separate
>> ones, "girl talk" and "boy talk."
>>
>> I used to hang out with physics and math Olympiad crowds and then math
>> students, mostly male, when I was young. There were a lot of subtle examples
>> of differences of this sort - discourse, body language, spatial behavior,
>> intellectual behavior, humor and so on.
>>
>> Now I organize math groups for kids and for grown-ups. My kid groups are
>> homeschoolers, who can choose what classes to take, so you can see some of
>> those free choice behaviors. I can design a class that will predominantly
>> attract either gender, or a class that attracts both. I can also design a
>> class that either gender will perceive as unwelcoming. And this will have
>> very little to do with actual math content. For example, requiring writing
>> or text chat of 8-12 year olds, especially if you pay any attention to style
>> and grammar, will powerfully and disproportionately repel boys. Timed
>> competitive problem solving will disproportionally repel girls.
>>
>> There are a lot of observations about these effects in free choice
>> situations, hacker spaces included. An example that has a lot of data is
>> World of Warcraft, where designers went out of their ways to welcome both
>> genders. This works for older people: there are about the same number of men
>> and women playing, once the player age is past 30 or so. However, female
>> youths between 15 and 20 are a tiny minority compared to males that age. The
>> ratio gradually changes toward 30. There are systemic social factors in-game
>> that cause this to happen, and these factors are quite complex.
>>
>>>
>>> Sure, there are less girls in hackerspace because it is perceived as a
>>> boy's hobby. I personally think that this is wrong and that just shows a
>>> prejudice existing in the society as a whole. To change that, what we need
>>> is more female security experts, more female hardware hackers, more female
>>> robot makers but we don't need to make a new segregation between men's
>>> hacks and women's hacks, that would be just admitting defeat.
>>
>> I fully agree with the first part of it. If women take key positions a
>> community, they change the atmosphere. Hackerspaces that have female
>> organizers, like our new Durham, NC space, don't seem to have segregation
>> issues. It may take some segregation for this to happen, initially, if an
>> established hackerspace is already segregated. For example, to invite women,
>> you may need to invite several of them at once to form a micro-community of
>> support within the space. This way, they will feel comfortable even before
>> the atmosphere changes enough and this segregated support is not needed
>> anymore.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Maria Droujkova
>>
>> Make math your own, to make your own math.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Discuss mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>
>>
>
> --
> Sylvain
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>
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Re: [hackerspaces] An interesting point of view : "On Feminism and Microcontrollers"

Matt Joyce

Femenists are as dumb as wife beaters.  Let em rot.  We got hacking to do.  Either you are on board with that, or you aren't.  I don't care what sex organs you have as long as they aren't mine.

Or, for those who want to get flaim baited by me:

Jeez.  We get it, you like hackerspaces.  I am sorry for you that your sociology degree is useless in them, much like everywhere else... but you need to stop beating that dead horse and get in the fucking game ( or doll house if you prefer ).

Don't overheat your little brain cases trying to figure out why girls hate math.  Most people hate math.

Don't waste your welfare checks trying to find out if it's a conspiracy that there are so many fried chicken joints around your housing project.  Most people love fried chicken.  It's delicious.  I might eat some today in fact.

Gosh...  why did we ever let you people vote.  Go watch your survivor and play your wow and wait for use to provide you with the next great placebo to treat your depression.  I mean why stop wallowing in your own self pity long enough to be awesome when you can instead further bury yourself in your own ridiculous self delusion.  You crack baby.

Oh, I voted for Bush...  the second time. 

Eat it.

-openfly  

On Oct 2, 2010 12:44 PM, "Chris Weiss" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> In St. Louis we have only a few female members, but when they visit on
> their own accord, they tend to stick around at a much higher rate than
> male vistors.
>
> it doens't sound like you guys are doing anything wrong, you just
> haven't had the right women come across your space.
>
> On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 2:30 PM, Sylva1n <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Are there clear female-barrier-to-entry identified for hackerspaces,
>> or female no-noes that hackerspaces-in-the-making should be aware of?
>> Because in Grenoble (France), despite the openness of our
>> hackerspace-creation process, we have no female-hacker interest. None.
>> Zilch.
>> I've recently visited the Toulouse hackerspace, and despite the sole
>> female hacker being treated exactly like any other member (no sexist
>> jokes, nor special privileges), the gender imbalance is staggering!
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 2:35 PM, Maria Droujkova <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>  Lack of welcome takes different forms. For example, some books are read by
>>> different genders disproportionally, because of words in them.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 6:27 AM, Yves Quemener <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> Honestly, I am tired of this sexist crap...
>>>
>>> Some types of conversations may feel repelling to either gender, because men
>>> and women talk differently. You can see it at mixed parties, when they
>>> separate. There are general conversation styles, and then there are separate
>>> ones, "girl talk" and "boy talk."
>>>
>>> I used to hang out with physics and math Olympiad crowds and then math
>>> students, mostly male, when I was young. There were a lot of subtle examples
>>> of differences of this sort - discourse, body language, spatial behavior,
>>> intellectual behavior, humor and so on.
>>>
>>> Now I organize math groups for kids and for grown-ups. My kid groups are
>>> homeschoolers, who can choose what classes to take, so you can see some of
>>> those free choice behaviors. I can design a class that will predominantly
>>> attract either gender, or a class that attracts both. I can also design a
>>> class that either gender will perceive as unwelcoming. And this will have
>>> very little to do with actual math content. For example, requiring writing
>>> or text chat of 8-12 year olds, especially if you pay any attention to style
>>> and grammar, will powerfully and disproportionately repel boys. Timed
>>> competitive problem solving will disproportionally repel girls.
>>>
>>> There are a lot of observations about these effects in free choice
>>> situations, hacker spaces included. An example that has a lot of data is
>>> World of Warcraft, where designers went out of their ways to welcome both
>>> genders. This works for older people: there are about the same number of men
>>> and women playing, once the player age is past 30 or so. However, female
>>> youths between 15 and 20 are a tiny minority compared to males that age. The
>>> ratio gradually changes toward 30. There are systemic social factors in-game
>>> that cause this to happen, and these factors are quite complex.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sure, there are less girls in hackerspace because it is perceived as a
>>>> boy's hobby. I personally think that this is wrong and that just shows a
>>>> prejudice existing in the society as a whole. To change that, what we need
>>>> is more female security experts, more female hardware hackers, more female
>>>> robot makers but we don't need to make a new segregation between men's
>>>> hacks and women's hacks, that would be just admitting defeat.
>>>
>>> I fully agree with the first part of it. If women take key positions a
>>> community, they change the atmosphere. Hackerspaces that have female
>>> organizers, like our new Durham, NC space, don't seem to have segregation
>>> issues. It may take some segregation for this to happen, initially, if an
>>> established hackerspace is already segregated. For example, to invite women,
>>> you may need to invite several of them at once to form a micro-community of
>>> support within the space. This way, they will feel comfortable even before
>>> the atmosphere changes enough and this segregated support is not needed
>>> anymore.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Maria Droujkova
>>>
>>> Make math your own, to make your own math.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Discuss mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Sylvain
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Re: [hackerspaces] An interesting point of view : "On Feminism and Microcontrollers"

Matt Joyce
Oh and fuck furries too!

On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 1:01 PM, Matt Joyce <[hidden email]> wrote:

Femenists are as dumb as wife beaters.  Let em rot.  We got hacking to do.  Either you are on board with that, or you aren't.  I don't care what sex organs you have as long as they aren't mine.

Or, for those who want to get flaim baited by me:

Jeez.  We get it, you like hackerspaces.  I am sorry for you that your sociology degree is useless in them, much like everywhere else... but you need to stop beating that dead horse and get in the fucking game ( or doll house if you prefer ).

Don't overheat your little brain cases trying to figure out why girls hate math.  Most people hate math.

Don't waste your welfare checks trying to find out if it's a conspiracy that there are so many fried chicken joints around your housing project.  Most people love fried chicken.  It's delicious.  I might eat some today in fact.

Gosh...  why did we ever let you people vote.  Go watch your survivor and play your wow and wait for use to provide you with the next great placebo to treat your depression.  I mean why stop wallowing in your own self pity long enough to be awesome when you can instead further bury yourself in your own ridiculous self delusion.  You crack baby.

Oh, I voted for Bush...  the second time. 

Eat it.

-openfly  

On Oct 2, 2010 12:44 PM, "Chris Weiss" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> In St. Louis we have only a few female members, but when they visit on
> their own accord, they tend to stick around at a much higher rate than
> male vistors.
>
> it doens't sound like you guys are doing anything wrong, you just
> haven't had the right women come across your space.
>
> On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 2:30 PM, Sylva1n <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Are there clear female-barrier-to-entry identified for hackerspaces,
>> or female no-noes that hackerspaces-in-the-making should be aware of?
>> Because in Grenoble (France), despite the openness of our
>> hackerspace-creation process, we have no female-hacker interest. None.
>> Zilch.
>> I've recently visited the Toulouse hackerspace, and despite the sole
>> female hacker being treated exactly like any other member (no sexist
>> jokes, nor special privileges), the gender imbalance is staggering!
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 2:35 PM, Maria Droujkova <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>  Lack of welcome takes different forms. For example, some books are read by
>>> different genders disproportionally, because of words in them.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 6:27 AM, Yves Quemener <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> Honestly, I am tired of this sexist crap...
>>>
>>> Some types of conversations may feel repelling to either gender, because men
>>> and women talk differently. You can see it at mixed parties, when they
>>> separate. There are general conversation styles, and then there are separate
>>> ones, "girl talk" and "boy talk."
>>>
>>> I used to hang out with physics and math Olympiad crowds and then math
>>> students, mostly male, when I was young. There were a lot of subtle examples
>>> of differences of this sort - discourse, body language, spatial behavior,
>>> intellectual behavior, humor and so on.
>>>
>>> Now I organize math groups for kids and for grown-ups. My kid groups are
>>> homeschoolers, who can choose what classes to take, so you can see some of
>>> those free choice behaviors. I can design a class that will predominantly
>>> attract either gender, or a class that attracts both. I can also design a
>>> class that either gender will perceive as unwelcoming. And this will have
>>> very little to do with actual math content. For example, requiring writing
>>> or text chat of 8-12 year olds, especially if you pay any attention to style
>>> and grammar, will powerfully and disproportionately repel boys. Timed
>>> competitive problem solving will disproportionally repel girls.
>>>
>>> There are a lot of observations about these effects in free choice
>>> situations, hacker spaces included. An example that has a lot of data is
>>> World of Warcraft, where designers went out of their ways to welcome both
>>> genders. This works for older people: there are about the same number of men
>>> and women playing, once the player age is past 30 or so. However, female
>>> youths between 15 and 20 are a tiny minority compared to males that age. The
>>> ratio gradually changes toward 30. There are systemic social factors in-game
>>> that cause this to happen, and these factors are quite complex.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sure, there are less girls in hackerspace because it is perceived as a
>>>> boy's hobby. I personally think that this is wrong and that just shows a
>>>> prejudice existing in the society as a whole. To change that, what we need
>>>> is more female security experts, more female hardware hackers, more female
>>>> robot makers but we don't need to make a new segregation between men's
>>>> hacks and women's hacks, that would be just admitting defeat.
>>>
>>> I fully agree with the first part of it. If women take key positions a
>>> community, they change the atmosphere. Hackerspaces that have female
>>> organizers, like our new Durham, NC space, don't seem to have segregation
>>> issues. It may take some segregation for this to happen, initially, if an
>>> established hackerspace is already segregated. For example, to invite women,
>>> you may need to invite several of them at once to form a micro-community of
>>> support within the space. This way, they will feel comfortable even before
>>> the atmosphere changes enough and this segregated support is not needed
>>> anymore.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Maria Droujkova
>>>
>>> Make math your own, to make your own math.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Discuss mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Sylvain
>> _______________________________________________
>> Discuss mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss


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Re: [hackerspaces] An interesting point of view : "On Feminism and Microcontrollers"

Serendipity Seraph
In reply to this post by Chris Weiss

On Oct 2, 2010, at 12:43 PM, Chris Weiss wrote:

> In St. Louis we have only a few female members, but when they visit on
> their own accord, they tend to stick around at a much higher rate than
> male vistors.

*laughs*  When I want to stand out like a sore thumb I go to a local Lisp meeting.  Not another female anywhere.   To bad I am not particularly heterosexual.  Zero competition.    :)

- s

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Re: [hackerspaces] An interesting point of view : "On Feminism and Microcontrollers"

Serendipity Seraph
In reply to this post by Maria Droujkova

On Oct 2, 2010, at 5:35 AM, Maria Droujkova wrote:


 Lack of welcome takes different forms. For example, some books are read by different genders disproportionally, because of words in them.


On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 6:27 AM, Yves Quemener <[hidden email]> wrote:

>

Honestly, I am tired of this sexist crap...

Some types of conversations may feel repelling to either gender, because men and women talk differently. You can see it at mixed parties, when they separate. There are general conversation styles, and then there are separate ones, "girl talk" and "boy talk."


True enough.  Though I think I see more blending of modes than when I was younger.  

I used to hang out with physics and math Olympiad crowds and then math students, mostly male, when I was young. There were a lot of subtle examples of differences of this sort - discourse, body language, spatial behavior, intellectual behavior, humor and so on.

Yep.


Now I organize math groups for kids and for grown-ups. My kid groups are homeschoolers, who can choose what classes to take, so you can see some of those free choice behaviors. I can design a class that will predominantly attract either gender, or a class that attracts both. I can also design a class that either gender will perceive as unwelcoming. And this will have very little to do with actual math content. For example, requiring writing or text chat of 8-12 year olds, especially if you pay any attention to style and grammar, will powerfully and disproportionately repel boys. Timed competitive problem solving will disproportionally repel girls.

Now that is interesting.  It makes sense but hadn't occurred to me.  I was beginning to think the grammar curriculum no longer existed among the young of both genders though.  I find it difficult to get full sentences in email out of anyone under 21.   :)


There are a lot of observations about these effects in free choice situations, hacker spaces included. An example that has a lot of data is World of Warcraft, where designers went out of their ways to welcome both genders. This works for older people: there are about the same number of men and women playing, once the player age is past 30 or so. However, female youths between 15 and 20 are a tiny minority compared to males that age. The ratio gradually changes toward 30. There are systemic social factors in-game that cause this to happen, and these factors are quite complex.


Sure, there are less girls in hackerspace because it is perceived as a
boy's hobby. I personally think that this is wrong and that just shows a
prejudice existing in the society as a whole. To change that, what we need
is more female security experts, more female hardware hackers, more female
robot makers but we don't need to make a new segregation between men's
hacks and women's hacks, that would be just admitting defeat.

I fully agree with the first part of it. If women take key positions a community, they change the atmosphere.

Some of the best female hackers I know are more into hacks of various kinds in the pursuit of art and expression.  Not to over-generalize but there does seem to be more of that.  I am a really good software designer.  But when I tell a male co-worker that the system is just "prettier" that way (aesthetic sense) their heads spin around.  When "pretty" translates to better performance, more maintainable and easy to modify they have a bit more respect but still bristle at the word.  But for me aesthetics are a big piece of how I do what I do even if I have to translate it or rationalize it in other ways for a a lot of colleagues. 

- s


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Re: [hackerspaces] An interesting point of view : "On Feminism and Microcontrollers"

Matt Joyce
In reply to this post by Serendipity Seraph
Not that anyone would want to sleep with someone at a lisp meeting.  Unless we mean a meeting of people with lisps...  or maybe you mean a lips meeting?

On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 2:23 PM, Serendipity Seraph <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Oct 2, 2010, at 12:43 PM, Chris Weiss wrote:

> In St. Louis we have only a few female members, but when they visit on
> their own accord, they tend to stick around at a much higher rate than
> male vistors.

*laughs*  When I want to stand out like a sore thumb I go to a local Lisp meeting.  Not another female anywhere.   To bad I am not particularly heterosexual.  Zero competition.    :)

- s

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Re: [hackerspaces] An interesting point of view : "On Feminism and Microcontrollers"

Yves Quemener
In reply to this post by Maria Droujkova
On 10/02/2010 02:35 PM, Maria Droujkova wrote:

> Lack of welcome takes different forms. For example, some books are read
> by different genders disproportionally, because of words in them.

Could you point at a practical example of lack of welcome that applies to
some hackerspaces that were biased against women specifically ? I am not
arguing that there are statistically significant differences between men
and women behaviors, I am arguing that the gender imbalance in hackerspaces
come from stereotypes that exist outside of them.

> Now I organize math groups for kids and for grown-ups. My kid groups are
> homeschoolers, who can choose what classes to take, so you can see some of
> those free choice behaviors. I can design a class that will predominantly
> attract either gender, or a class that attracts both. I can also design a
> class that either gender will perceive as unwelcoming. And this will have
> very little to do with actual math content. For example, requiring writing
> or text chat of 8-12 year olds, especially if you pay any attention to
> style and grammar, will powerfully and disproportionately repel boys. Timed
> competitive problem solving will disproportionally repel girls.

That's good. Seriously, I am really grateful that some people pay attention
to the way education tend to propagate gender stereotypes and try to find
way to compensate for them. I am not shocked that in order to do that, it
may be important to pay attention to the gender of students.

The thing is (in my humble opinion) that hackerspaces do not have the same
mission as schools in that regard. HS are supposed to offer mature people
tools to hack in an atmosphere of tolerance and sharing. Come solder, come
program, come sew, come sculpt. You won't be mocked (actually, from what I
read on the ML, when someone mentioned sewing in the tmplab, a workshop was
asked because many people perceived this skill as very useful). But please
bring your skills, don't wait for others to propose them. That's what that
it is about.

> There are a lot of observations about these effects in free choice
> situations, hacker spaces included. An example that has a lot of data is
> World of Warcraft, where designers went out of their ways to welcome both
> genders. This works for older people: there are about the same number of
> men and women playing, once the player age is past 30 or so. However,
> female youths between 15 and 20 are a tiny minority compared to males that
> age. The ratio gradually changes toward 30. There are systemic social
> factors in-game that cause this to happen, and these factors are quite complex.

WoW is a commercial game. They need to have the biggest marketshare
possible. I don't see why hackerspaces should aim at a balance ratio of
genders. They are places to hack, learn, share. Opened to any gender, and
usually full of really open-minded people. What more to ask for ?

Iv
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Re: [hackerspaces] An interesting point of view : "On Feminism and Microcontrollers"

Maria Droujkova
On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 7:34 PM, Yves Quemener <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 10/02/2010 02:35 PM, Maria Droujkova wrote:

> Lack of welcome takes different forms. For example, some books are read
> by different genders disproportionally, because of words in them.

Could you point at a practical example of lack of welcome that applies to
some hackerspaces that were biased against women specifically ? I am not
arguing that there are statistically significant differences between men
and women behaviors, I am arguing that the gender imbalance in hackerspaces
come from stereotypes that exist outside of them.

I agree that imbalances come from outside. I can make some guesses about what features attract or repel people by gender. For example, information about opening hackerspaces may be distributed in predominantly male networks. This suspicion is easy to investigate. You can just ask people in hackerspaces how they decided to come, and then see the populations targeted by these "types of welcome."


The thing is (in my humble opinion) that hackerspaces do not have the same
mission as schools in that regard. HS are supposed to offer mature people
tools to hack in an atmosphere of tolerance and sharing. Come solder, come
program, come sew, come sculpt. You won't be mocked (actually, from what I
read on the ML, when someone mentioned sewing in the tmplab, a workshop was
asked because many people perceived this skill as very useful). But please
bring your skills, don't wait for others to propose them. That's what that
it is about.

I thought information about unschooler and some homeschooler networks (as opposed to schools) is relevant precisely because of the atmosphere of DIY, initiative, and tolerance within unschooler circles. There are, obviously, many differences.

WoW is a commercial game. They need to have the biggest marketshare
possible. I don't see why hackerspaces should aim at a balance ratio of
genders. They are places to hack, learn, share. Opened to any gender, and
usually full of really open-minded people. What more to ask for ?

Iv

The majority of commercial games aim at 15-25 males, however. Only a few even try to target mixed audiences, by age or by gender. I brought up WoW because they do try, and succeed for some demographics but not others.

I don't know why the balance of genders in hackerspaces came up, either. Is it even a problem?! Maybe hackerspaces can be happily segregated or imbalanced.

MariaD


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Re: [hackerspaces] An interesting point of view : "On Feminism and Microcontrollers"

Ron Bean
In reply to this post by Serendipity Seraph
Serendipity Seraph <[hidden email]> writes:

>But when I tell a male co-worker that the system is just "prettier" that
>way (aesthetic sense) their heads spin around.  When "pretty" translates
>to better performance, more maintainable and easy to modify they have a
>bit more respect but still bristle at the word.  But for me aesthetics
>are a big piece of how I do what I do even if I have to translate it or
>rationalize it in other ways for a a lot of colleagues.
 
What if you call it "elegant" instead of "pretty"?
(They're not quite the same thing, but they do overlap quite a bit)

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Re: [hackerspaces] An interesting point of view : "On Feminism and Microcontrollers"

Danyelle Davis
Elegant or Pretty will get the same result.  Alot of woman will always see
things in a pretty or ugly way because its how we work.  Just like some men
tend to be more practical.. and think more simplistic as far as design
goes.  This is why we are the yin and yang.  They need to deal with it.
Seriously.. Just like we need to deal with some of the words we find wrong
but its their way of expression.  *shrug*.  

On Sun, 3 Oct 2010 18:22:17 -0400, Ron Bean
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Serendipity Seraph <[hidden email]> writes:
>
>>But when I tell a male co-worker that the system is just "prettier" that
>>way (aesthetic sense) their heads spin around.  When "pretty" translates
>>to better performance, more maintainable and easy to modify they have a
>>bit more respect but still bristle at the word.  But for me aesthetics
>>are a big piece of how I do what I do even if I have to translate it or
>>rationalize it in other ways for a a lot of colleagues.
>  
> What if you call it "elegant" instead of "pretty"?
> (They're not quite the same thing, but they do overlap quite a bit)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.hackerspaces.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
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Re: [hackerspaces] An interesting point of view : "On Feminism and Microcontrollers"

Serendipity Seraph
In reply to this post by Ron Bean

On Oct 3, 2010, at 3:22 PM, Ron Bean wrote:

> Serendipity Seraph <[hidden email]> writes:
>
>> But when I tell a male co-worker that the system is just "prettier" that
>> way (aesthetic sense) their heads spin around.  When "pretty" translates
>> to better performance, more maintainable and easy to modify they have a
>> bit more respect but still bristle at the word.  But for me aesthetics
>> are a big piece of how I do what I do even if I have to translate it or
>> rationalize it in other ways for a a lot of colleagues.
>
> What if you call it "elegant" instead of "pretty"?
> (They're not quite the same thing, but they do overlap quite a bit)
>

Because I mean something a bit different than elegant.  Elegant can be part of pretty but it just looks, feels, moves through state and configuration changes in a more aesthetically pleasing way.  It is more alive or honest as a part of a software ecology.  So to me "pretty" sums it up.    Of course I have some suspicion I use it at this point in part just because of some of the reactions.  :)

- s

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Re: [hackerspaces] An interesting point of view : "On Feminism and Microcontrollers"

Matthew Forr
Some of the best female hackers I know are more into hacks of various kinds in the pursuit of art and expression.  Not to over-generalize but there does seem to be more of that. 

I would agree with this statement and I wonder if we made a mistake in naming our movement. The term 'hacker' is confusing for most people outside of tech communities, there's been countless times that I've had to explain that we don't 'hack tehz gibs0n'.

Moreover, it shouldn't be surprising that in naming our workshops as hackerspace's that we end up attracting a bunch of males that want to build crazy robots, electronics and software, their minds have already been primed by the word 'hacker' and come ready to engage on that level.

In talking with my girlfriend about this (a non-technical woman in tech) she explained that she doesn't fully grasp what the point/purpose/goals of a hackerspace are. I turned around and called it a makerspace and she instantly understood and then went on to describe some things she wants to make.

In the end this leads me to believe that the name we've chosen is inherently excludes certain groups we would like to attract (male & female artists, crafters and more).

On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 10:33 PM, Serendipity Seraph <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Oct 3, 2010, at 3:22 PM, Ron Bean wrote:

> Serendipity Seraph <[hidden email]> writes:
>
>> But when I tell a male co-worker that the system is just "prettier" that
>> way (aesthetic sense) their heads spin around.  When "pretty" translates
>> to better performance, more maintainable and easy to modify they have a
>> bit more respect but still bristle at the word.  But for me aesthetics
>> are a big piece of how I do what I do even if I have to translate it or
>> rationalize it in other ways for a a lot of colleagues.
>
> What if you call it "elegant" instead of "pretty"?
> (They're not quite the same thing, but they do overlap quite a bit)
>

Because I mean something a bit different than elegant.  Elegant can be part of pretty but it just looks, feels, moves through state and configuration changes in a more aesthetically pleasing way.  It is more alive or honest as a part of a software ecology.  So to me "pretty" sums it up.    Of course I have some suspicion I use it at this point in part just because of some of the reactions.  :)

- s

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--
-Matthew

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Re: [hackerspaces] An interesting point of view : "On Feminism and Microcontrollers"

Maria Droujkova



On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 9:23 AM, Matthew Forr <[hidden email]> wrote:
Some of the best female hackers I know are more into hacks of various kinds in the pursuit of art and expression.  Not to over-generalize but there does seem to be more of that. 



In talking with my girlfriend about this (a non-technical woman in tech) she explained that she doesn't fully grasp what the point/purpose/goals of a hackerspace are. I turned around and called it a makerspace and she instantly understood and then went on to describe some things she wants to make.

Statistically, women are more inclined to do activities that have some sort of a maker goal. The accomplishment of a solved puzzle is much less attractive to females than the accomplishment of a created project. So, for example, optimization game mechanics or task design, where the whole point is to do a task over and over again till you do it faster (or otherwise with better parameters) won't appeal to women as much. Many computer science courses are built around parameter optimization problems, which female students disproportionally dislike. On the other hand, striving for a more beautiful design, which is about a qualitative change in the project - a maker task - can be more appealing. But this is not the only example of "maker appeal."

This, by the way, has very little to do with how applied the task is! It's not about real-life applications, it is about values.


Cheers,
Maria Droujkova

Make math your own, to make your own math.


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Re: [hackerspaces] An interesting point of view : "On Feminism and Microcontrollers"

Danyelle Davis
In reply to this post by Matthew Forr



"I would agree with this statement and I wonder if we made a mistake in
naming our movement. The term 'hacker' is confusing for most people outside
of tech communities, there's been countless times that I've had to explain
that we don't 'hack tehz gibs0n'.

Moreover, it shouldn't be surprising that in naming our workshops as
hackerspace's that we end up attracting a bunch of males that want to build
crazy robots, electronics and software, their minds have already been
primed by the word 'hacker' and come ready to engage on that level."

Isn't that why we explain what our space is about?  I mean what about
hackerspaces that have a particular group that wants to "Hack".  I mean its
not our fault that the more melicious groups out there have adopted the
name hacker.  Here is the Description for Reverse Space "Reverse Space is a
5,500 sq. ft. warehouse in Herndon, VA containing equipment for reverse
engineering, building, and computing in a group environment. Equipment &
services include: 3D printer, laser cutter, saws/drill presses, soldering,
sandboxed cyber war center, co-working, and conference rooms. "

In the above it explains in detail what the space is about.  I don't think
its the naming schema ( maybe I am old) but I like the word hackerspace.
If I heard makerspace I would think it was only about making stuff like
Make Magazine.   Maybe we need to have two groups within a hackerspace..
one called a makergroup and the other a hackerspace group? I dunno.  

I find hackerspaces the group of version of 2600 groups where instead of
meeting at a mall/eatery/bookstore.  We have a place to bring
hardware/software to play.  



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Re: [hackerspaces] An interesting point of view : "On Feminism and Microcontrollers"

Ron Bean
In reply to this post by Matthew Forr
Matthew Forr <[hidden email]> writes:

>In talking with my girlfriend about this (a non-technical woman in tech) she
>explained that she doesn't fully grasp what the point/purpose/goals of a
>hackerspace are. I turned around and called it a makerspace and she
>instantly understood and then went on to describe some things she wants to
>make.

I get the impression that the first "hackerspaces" were organized around
software hacking, as opposed to the kind of hardware hacking (often
unrelated to electronics or computers) that a lot of us do now. That
meant they just had desks, electricity, and wifi (and a fridge).

A "makerspace" typically focuses on hacking atoms rather than bits
(sometimes with embedded controllers), and consequently, requires more
square feet, which in turn requires more rent money.        

Feel free to come up with a better name for it...

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